Стратегическая миссия - переписать историю Литвы.

parus

ludmila_ch писал(а):

Обсуждается отношение белорусов к литовцам. Напишите и Вы на своей абракадабре. Может, на Вашу абракадабру ещё кто подтянется в разговор. :-):

Спасибо, и моего "инвалидного" английского хватило, чтобы понять, о чём речь. :hi_hi_hi:

Писать по-немецки не стану, засмеют же...

А тема - вечная, на мой личный взгляд - главная для нас. Сможем переступить через тупой пещерный национализм - литовцы нас подержат даже сильнее, чем поляки.
Понимаете, когда "наезд" со стороны литовской "нарисовывается", можно "отбрехиваться". Но по сути - мы один народ, каждая часть которого страдает комплексами, о которых наши предки не знали. Ну, гербы делили, ну, вера разная (кто сегодня разберёт, где какая?), ну, языки чуть разные...
Я ж писал уже много раз, рос я чуть ли не на руках литовца, потомственного егеря, ветерана ВОВ, лесного человека, с удовольствием делившегося со мной премудростями Пущи...

SD

kama писал(а):

SD писал(а):

We don't get involved in such petty subjects of who stole what from whom. Read our Intremarium section and try to think positevly.

Don't think I have bad intentions. I've been supporting Intermarium idea for a long time in Poland and I'm glad that it is popular also in Belarus. But to do it we must understand ourselves and problems, which exist between our nations to find some solutions to solve it. I'm really sorry about it, but the fact is that any ally between Poland and Lithuania is now impossible, even with very positive thinking... And as I saw this topic, I was wondering if Belarus also has problem with it... I think it is very important to know what your potential partner think about your country and its history...

A road to hell is being paved with good intentions. History is full of blood and nonsense between any nations. The only way to overcome it is not constsntly to mess about it but to work togeter for a common cause.

ABC-13

parus писал(а):

А тема - вечная, на мой личный взгляд - главная для нас. Сможем переступить через тупой пещерный национализм - литовцы нас подержат даже сильнее, чем поляки.

Ни литовцы, ни поляки не хотят и ИМХО не будут хоть в чем-то изменяться. Они гордятся тем, что не изменились, выстояли во время российско-советской оккупации. Я бы назвал это не столько национализмом, сколько упрямым нежеланием поддаваться давлению. Так ради чего они будут меняться сегодня? Ради РБ?

parus писал(а):

Но по сути - мы один народ, каждая часть которого страдает комплексами, о которых наши предки не знали. Ну, гербы делили, ну, вера разная (кто сегодня разберёт, где какая?), ну, языки чуть разные...

По сути все мы млекопитающие и кролик - наш брат по млекопитанию. :-)

Но это не делает нас одним народом. :ps_ih:

Так и здесь - разная история, разные языки, разные веры, очень разный менталитет.
Разная история хотя бы потому, что история ополячивания - это история успехов поляков и поражений беларусов.

Woloh

kama писал(а):

Hello everyone. At the beginning I'd like to apologize for not writting in Belarussian, but I don't know this language much. I found this subject and am interested in attitude that Belarussians (or the Belarussian opposition) have on modern Lithuanian state and especially Lithuanian nationalism. I know you were discussing this issue already here, but I haven't understand enough so I'd like to ask you to write it in English too :) Polish-Lithuanian relations are currently very bad for many reasons and what are the relations between Belarus and Lithuania and between your nations? I read some articles where it was stated that Belarussians treat Lithuanians as close brothers and there are no problems even with dealing same national symbols like the Pursuit coat of arms. But on the other hand I met opinions from Belarussian point of view that modern Lithuanians stole GDL heritage, to which the Belarussians have more rights (it is also connected with difference between names "Lithuania" (modern baltic state) and "Litva" refering to old historial state. What do you think about it?

You pretty much summarized it in the right way, except for the word "brothers". The fact is that Belarus and Lithuania indeed increasingly "compete" for the legacy of GDL - and this is sad. If things don't change, I would say Belarus and Lithuania are on a collision course with growth of Belarusian national identity.

Belarusians are mostly positive about Lithuanians as people, but the state ideology of modern Lithuania can hardly co-exist with a nationally resurgent Belarus. Belarusians are totally fine for having GDL as our common legacy, but this somehow doesn't click with the Lithuanian elite. They prefer to have a nationally numb Lukashenko at their side, who leaves all of GDL to them. It is bad that many of them don't understand that it is not sustainable.

It is somewhat ironic that today Belarusians can find much more common ground with Poles and Ukrainians, than with Lithuanians with who they shared 600 years of common statehood.

kama

Woloh писал(а):

You pretty much summarized it in the right way, except for the word "brothers". The fact is that Belarus and Lithuania indeed increasingly "compete" for the legacy of GDL - and this is sad. If things don't change, I would say Belarus and Lithuania are on a collision course with growth of Belarusian national identity.

Belarusians are mostly positive about Lithuanians as people, but the state ideology of modern Lithuania can hardly co-exist with a nationally resurgent Belarus. Belarusians are totally fine for having GDL as our common legacy, but this somehow doesn't click with the Lithuanian elite. They prefer to have a nationally numb Lukashenko at their side, who leaves all of GDL to them. It is bad that many of them don't understand that it is not sustainable.

It is somewhat ironic that today Belarusians can find much more common ground with Poles and Ukrainians, than with Lithuanians with who they shared 600 years of common statehood.

Thanks. That's what I noticed too. What I can add is that Poles treat Belarussians as the closest nation from all of an old Rzeczpospolita.

Woloh

kama писал(а):

Thanks. That's what I noticed too. What I can add is that Poles treat Belarussians as the closest nation from all of an old Rzeczpospolita.

Thank you for your warm words.

I have also noticed that there is some co-existential fit between Poles and Belarusians. They are not identical, they just fit together well, they don't rub each other's edges (unlike with other neighbors). Difficult to describe with words.

Recently we experimented with a very provocative topic -a referendum on a confederation between Belarus and Poland, some media in Poland and Belarus responded. I personally was surprised at the "approval rating" of this idea, despite all the anti-Polish stereotypes and sentiments that spill to here from the Russian internet. People in Russia literally go nuts when they hear that Belarusians en mass do not necessarily oppose the idea, and many quite favor it. It is like their entire system of values collapses.

However, I should also admit that modern Belarusians are no Litvins of the old Rzeczpospolita, even though they might have come from them. Those Litvins are long dead. The nation was cleansed and remixed after centuries of wars for annihilation. A completely new bread came in its place. Sometimes it reminds me a zombie in a corpse of a Litvin. But frankly, it is just a different animal, whose DNA also includes a very persistent Litvin mark. I wouldn't rush to denounce it. Let's see what eventually comes out of it. It is more urbanized, less religious, and more technocratic. Belarusians could have become a little more like Czechs if they had revived their historic legacy better. But being confronted by the grasp of the stagnating yet still overwhelming Russian Empire I feel Belarus will be eventually forced to become a little more like a militarized Israel (with Intermarium being its USA :))

ludmila_ch

Woloh писал(а):

kama писал(а):

Thanks. That's what I noticed too. What I can add is that Poles treat Belarussians as the closest nation from all of an old Rzeczpospolita.

Thank you for your warm words.

I have also noticed that there is some co-existential fit between Poles and Belarusians. They are not identical, they just fit together well, they don't rub each other's edges (unlike with other neighbors). Difficult to describe with words.

Recently we experimented with a very provocative topic -a referendum on a confederation between Belarus and Poland, some media in Poland and Belarus responded. I personally was surprised at the "approval rating" of this idea, despite all the anti-Polish stereotypes and sentiments that spill to here from the Russian internet. People in Russia literally go nuts when they hear that Belarusians en mass do not necessarily oppose the idea, and many quite favor it. It is like their entire system of values collapses.

However, I should also admit that modern Belarusians are no Litvins of the old Rzeczpospolita, even though they might have come from them. Those Litvins are long dead. The nation was cleansed and remixed after centuries of wars for annihilation. A completely new bread came in its place. Sometimes it reminds me a zombie in a corpse of a Litvin. But frankly, it is just a different animal, whose DNA also includes a very persistent Litvin mark. I wouldn't rush to denounce it. Let's see what eventually comes out of it. It is more urbanized, less religious, and more technocratic. Belarusians could have become a little more like Czechs if they had revived their historic legacy better. But being confronted by the grasp of the stagnating yet still overwhelming Russian Empire I feel Belarus will be eventually forced to become a little more like a militarized Israel (with Intermarium being its USA :))

Your metaphor is something, dear Woloh! :-)

Стратегическая миссия - переписать историю Литвы.

Кто сейчас на конференции