Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi

Sim0nSs

O całej inicjatywie konfederacji polsko-białoruskiej dowiedziałem się zupełnie przypadkowo. Prawdę mówiąc, nie byłem nawet świadom, że w kraju rządzonym przez A. Łukaszenkę mogą rodzić się takie pomysły. Jestem być może pierwszym Polakiem w tym miejscu, dlatego opowiem wam jak cała idea wygląda od strony polskiej.

Tradycja konfederacji (Rzeczypospolitej) narodziła się za panowania dynastii Jagiellonów. Osoba monarchy scalała wtedy dwa organizmy państwowe o odrębnych instytucjach. Przez cały ten czas następowała powolna integracja, przypieczętowana Unią Lubelską w roku 1569. Przyczyną integracji było z początku zagrożenie zewnętrzne, a następnie świadomość wspólnie odnoszonych korzyści. Aby konfederacja mogła zaistnieć, muszą wystąpić te dwie wyżej wymienione przesłanki- co więcej, muszą chcieć tego obydwa społeczeństwa (łatwiej jest przekonać jedną osobę, króla, aniżeli 51% narodu).
Pomysł konfederacji (nazywany koncepcją międzymorza) odżył na początku XX wieku, kiedy kształtowało się Polskie Państwo (II Rzeczpospolita) przed I Wojną Światową. Ruch ten skupiony był wokół osoby Marszałka J. Piłsudskiego. Tutaj macie więcej informacji. Każdemu, kto poważnie interesuje się tym tematem, polecam książkę George'a Friedmana "Następne 100 lat". Jest to człowiek blisko powiązany z amerykańskimi specjalnymi służbami, jako szef agencji Stratfor jego słowa mają moc samospełniającej się przepowiedni. Przewiduje powstanie takiej Konfederacji, która w perspektywie 100 lat wyrosnąć może na jedno z czołowych, światowych (!) mocarstw.

Praktyczne aspekty wdrożenia idei konfederacji Polsko- Białoruskiej

Białoruś w oczach postronnego obserwatora wygląda faktycznie na ostatnią dyktaturę Europy, jednakże A. Łukaszenko jest zręcznym taktykiem politycznym i doskonale zdaje sobie sprawę ze wszystkich zagrożeń, z którymi przyjdzie się Białorusi zmierzyć w najbliższej przyszłości. Czy presja społeczna i 'historyczna konieczność' będą w stanie zmusić go do podjęcia odważnych decyzji? To będzie problem do rozwiązania dla was, Białorusinów.
Pieniądze- z tym będzie ciężko. Polska nie jest w awangardzie najbogatszych krajów świata, a to na niej w dużej mierze spocznie ciężar restrukturyzacji i modernizacji przestarzałej gospodarki Białorusi. Oczywiście istnieje rozwiązanie najprostsze- powrót do ekonomicznej myśli szkoły austriackiej, osób takich jak von Mises czy Hayek- i powtórzenie sukcesu amerykańskiego z XIX wieku, czy też chińskiego z początku XXI wieku, w oparciu o prywatną inicjatywę i maksymalnie wolny rynek (to zlikwiduje całkowicie problem nadwyżki siły roboczej).

Sprawa najtrudniejsza: sytuacja międzynarodowa. Wszystko zależy od tego, czy zgodę na utworzenie tak wielkiego organizmu w centrum Europy wyrażą ci, w których rękach jest świat. Z całą pewnością można stwierdzić, że projekt taki narusza najbardziej żywotne interesy Moskwy oraz Berlina (patrz: koncepcja Mitteleuropy). Projekt leży w interesie USA i Chin. Być może właśnie tam należy szukać poparcia.
Stopień infiltracji naszych państw przez rosyjskie służby specjalne jest "wysoko niebezpieczny", co również jest olbrzymią przeszkodą w dążeniu do realizacji tak ambitnych planów.

Tyle tytułem wstępu. Zagadnienie wspólnej konfederacji jest tematem rozciągającym się poprzez przeróżne dziedziny: prawo międzynarodowe, prawo wewnętrzne i administrację, politykę wewnętrzną i geopolitykę, kulturę i historiozofię. Jest wiele tematów do omówienia, dlatego zapraszam do wspólnej dyskusji. Jeśli ktoś nie zna polskiego, będę pisał po angielsku. Zastrzegam, że rosyjskiego nie znam (używam niedoskonałego narzędzia do tłumaczenia, Google Translate).

Монро

Курманбек Салиевич

adam-kadmon писал(а):

Монро писал(а):

:co_ol:

Монро, а вот для Вас и ответ, на вопрос к Вам в соседней ветке "Skąd na to wszystko wziąć kasę?"

Цитата:

Pieniądze- z tym będzie ciężko. Polska nie jest w awangardzie najbogatszych krajów świata, a to na niej w dużej mierze spocznie ciężar restrukturyzacji i modernizacji przestarzałej gospodarki Białorusi. Oczywiście istnieje rozwiązanie najprostsze- powrót do ekonomicznej myśli szkoły austriackiej, osób takich jak von Mises czy Hayek- i powtórzenie sukcesu amerykańskiego z XIX wieku, czy też chińskiego z początku XXI wieku, w oparciu o prywatną inicjatywę i maksymalnie wolny rynek (to zlikwiduje całkowicie problem nadwyżki siły roboczej).

Sprawa najtrudniejsza: sytuacja międzynarodowa. Wszystko zależy od tego, czy zgodę na utworzenie tak wielkiego organizmu w centrum Europy wyrażą ci, w których rękach jest świat. Z całą pewnością można stwierdzić, że projekt taki narusza najbardziej żywotne interesy Moskwy oraz Berlina (patrz: koncepcja Mitteleuropy). Projekt leży w interesie USA i Chin. Być może właśnie tam należy szukać poparcia.
Stopień infiltracji naszych państw przez rosyjskie służby specjalne jest "wysoko niebezpieczny", co również jest olbrzymią przeszkodą w dążeniu do realizacji tak ambitnych planów.

Деньги- с этим будет очень тяжело. Польша не находится в авангарде самых богатых стран мира, а ведь на ней в значительной степени ляжет тяжесть реструктуризации и модернизации устаревшей экономики Беларуси. Конечно существует самое простое решение - обращение к экономической мысли австрийской школы, таких её представителей как von Mises или Hayek - и повторение американского успеха XIX века или может быть китайского XXI века при поддержке частной инициативы и максимально свободного рынка( это ликвидирует избыток рабочей силы).
Самая трудная часть: международная ситуация. Всё зависит от того дадут ли согласие на создание такого крупного организма в центре Европы те, в руках которых весь мир. С полной уверенностью можно утверждать, что данный проект в наибольшей степени затрагивает жизненные интересы Москвы , а также Берлина(смотри: koncepcja Mitteleuropy). Проект находится в интересах США и Китая. Быть может, именно там следует искать поддержки. Степень инфильтрации наших государств российскими спецслужбами очень высока, что также является огромным препятствием в стремлении реализации таких амбициозных планов.

Let's write in English or in Polish here. For Russian&Belarussian we have another topic.

2 pan Sim0nSs: welcome onboard!

mogdmb

2 Sim0nSs

What do you consider to be a possible mission for Confederation as well as the primary objectives of unification?

woolf

Sim0nSs писал(а):

...Sprawa najtrudniejsza: sytuacja międzynarodowa. Wszystko zależy od tego, czy zgodę na utworzenie tak wielkiego organizmu w centrum Europy wyrażą ci, w których rękach jest świat. Z całą pewnością można stwierdzić, że projekt taki narusza najbardziej żywotne interesy Moskwy oraz Berlina...

I think from the present comprehensive reinforcement of Moscow and Berlin it's not possible to expect anything good for Belarus or Poland in the future. Russia has already started the mechanism of merger of our country. Poland then will come across the territorial problem with Germany. Perhaps these two countries together will inhibit the idea of our consolidation. In the process of building a new Confederation we need to consider those reasons of destruction of our common state in the end of XVIII century and not to repeat them again.

Sim0nSs

mogdmb писал(а):

2 Sim0nSs

What do you consider to be a possible mission for Confederation as well as the primary objectives of unification?

The main (and ofc. possible) mission for future Confederation is to become a modern, free-market Union. We must transform Belarus from old-fashioned paternal autocracy into competitive western economy. It is not only possible, but it is necessary. Years of stagnation and patterns from Soviet Union ruined your economy, however, the mental destruction in your heads is even more disastrous. I see it all the time when I observe older generation, brought up in socialism. The first thing is to change people attitude towards life! You must become an enterprising and flexible nation, to use your potential on 100% (now it is maybe 10%, or even less). This is the point.

Primary objectives of unification:

* common defence plan, common army
* modern economy, focused on high technologies, mining, forestry
* common foreign policy
* becoming a noteworthy country for global players
* an introduction to even bigger confederation, including Ukraine

And that are only my first thoughts.

Jin

And I'm interested in the reaction of ordinary Poles to the idea of confederation.
While ordinary Belarusian reacts - "It is not possible". Without explanation.
While this idea in our head does not fit.
But we're working on it
:men:

Sorry for the Google-English :smu:sche_nie:

Jin

And a personal request:
Invite to us the poland's opponent of Confederation. To listen to objections from the standpoint of Poland.
Point of view Belarus and Russia in forum to much

Монро

Sim0nSs писал(а):

The main (and ofc. possible) mission for future Confederation is to become a modern, free-market Union.
agree. :a_g_a:

We must transform Belarus from old-fashioned paternal autocracy into competitive western economy. It is not only possible, but it is necessary.
agree. :a_g_a:

Years of stagnation and patterns from Soviet Union ruined your economy, however, the mental destruction in your heads is even more disastrous. Yes. :-(

I see it all the time when I observe older generation, brought up in socialism. The first thing is to change people attitude towards life! :a_g_a:

You must become an enterprising and flexible nation, to use your potential on 100% (now it is maybe 10%, or even less). This is the point.

Primary objectives of unification:

* common defence plan, common army :du_ma_et:

* modern economy, focused on high technologies, mining, forestry :a_g_a:

* common foreign policy :a_g_a:

* becoming a noteworthy country for global players :a_g_a:

* an introduction to even bigger confederation, including Ukraine :a_g_a:

And that are only my first thoughts.

Sim0nSs

woolf писал(а):

I think from the present comprehensive reinforcement of Moscow and Berlin it's not possible to expect anything good for Belarus or Poland in the future.

Do not overestimate Germany, in Poland we say that the real Germans lay under the Staliningrad. Germans has money (still) but their problems with immigrants don't predestinate them to be a real threat anymore.
Russia acts like a hurt bear, and the bear is still dangerous (as unpredictable). That's why we need to find allies at the Far East (China). The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

woolf писал(а):

Russia has already started the mechanism of merger of our country.

It's time to act, isn't it? You're in their sphere of influence, don't waste your chance of changing sites.

Цитата:

Poland then will come across the territorial problem with Germany.

As long as we have treaty about western border, it won't be easy for them to change anything.

Цитата:

Perhaps these two countries together will inhibit the idea of our consolidation. In the process of building a new Confederation we need to consider those reasons of destruction of our common state in the end of XVIII century and not to repeat them again.

I agree.

Jin

Монро писал(а):

:yes:

Monro, the man feels the same way as we do.
:ko_re:sha:

we need polish opponents

Sim0nSs

Jin писал(а):

And I'm interested in the reaction of ordinary Poles to the idea of confederation.

Poles miss the days of Huge Commonwealth. We love our former kings. The main problem is that we cannot imagine how country like Belarussia can take a decision while you have a dictatorship. It is a high level of abstraction, even for me.
And it will be difficult for me to invite anyone from Poland on this forum, as long as its language is Russian.

Монро

Jin писал(а):

Монро писал(а):

:yes:

Monro, the man feels the same way as we do.
:ko_re:sha:

we need polish opponents

Jin

You need polish opponents. I need polish friends. :dr_ink:

Монро

Sim0nSs писал(а):

Jin писал(а):

And I'm interested in the reaction of ordinary Poles to the idea of confederation.

Poles miss the days of Huge Commonwealth. We love our former kings. The main problem is that we cannot imagine how country like Belarussia can take a decision while you have a dictatorship. It is a high level of abstraction, even for me.
.

We think that this idea can be very interesting for belarussians.
I think that on the base of this idea we can organize not only public discussion in Belarus, but even a social and political movement in the future.

Курманбек Салиевич

Sim0nSs писал(а):

And it will be difficult for me to invite anyone from Poland on this forum, as long as its language is Russian.

Invite in this topic, make new topics - all in your hands. You are welcome.

Zaprosić przyjaciół, kolleg. Tutaj większość ludzi w stanie przeczytać Polski, trudności z pisania. Ale to bzdury, rozumiemy wzajemnie :uch_tiv:

SD

Thank you Sim0nSs for shedding some light on the proposed Belarus-Polish political union from the Polish point of view.

You rightly point out that such a union may only be forged based not just on the mutual consent coming from the benefits perspective but it also should be based on the clear understanding by the ruling elites of their respective external threats. The very fact that I address you in English represents one of the main dangers for Belarus people - the total melt down as a nation by the dominant economic and political power from the East. Put simply, there are only 200-300 000 belarusians left in the entire world today who pursue their lives in Belarus language preserving thereby Belarus nation from the complete extinction. To my personal shame it is much easier for me to communicate in English as supposed to my native tongue. I think it is obvious that under the circumstances it would be very inappropriate to use Russian replying to you. So, here I am, a native belarusian, writing to a pole in English...

Today our disappearance as a nation is certain if everything is left down to the primitive ruling cleptocracy in Minsk. However, not many people on both sides of the Bug river realise that these two problems are interconnected, that the illegitimate, weak and incapable political leadership in Minsk is actually a means of maintaining the long standing political and economic dominance by the eastern Big Brother. Nevertheless today I'm not going to expand on this particular topic for the simple reason that our problems going forward are almost obvious to everyone. On the other hand the challenges for Poland are not that clear cut and I should dare to bring up a few points on the matter.

Even though you think that Poland is at the forefront of the richest countries in the world as matter of fact it is not. Let me give you an example. According to Morgan Stanley the UK total debt-to-GDP ratio is almost 1000%. Not far behind is Japan.

Вложение:

debt.jpg [ 38.21 КБ | Просмотров: 82699 ]

The sovereign debt crisis in the Euro zone is not to go away either. So, the entire US dollar centered fiat monetary system is set to go through a prolonged deflationary period (think of the Japanese 2 lost decades) with the simultaneous rise in commodity and energy prices translating in rising cost prices. The overall effect is almost certain to be a prolonged period of stagflation with no growth in real terms and rising household bills. I don't think it is a particularly appealing future for Poland in case it will be fooled to join Euro.

SD

Sim0nSs писал(а):

Jin писал(а):

And I'm interested in the reaction of ordinary Poles to the idea of confederation.

The main problem is that we cannot imagine how country like Belarussia can take a decision while you have a dictatorship. It is a high level of abstraction, even for me.

Correct. But our proposal of the Commonwealth is only 4 days old. And look at the traction we get...

I think it has a potential for a real political movement in Belarus that will be impossible to ignore. With such a politically appealing idea in our hands and with a bit of support from poles we can bring the issue of illegitimate power in Minsk on the international level.

Andrej Cieraszkou'

my razumiejem pa-polsku
ci razumieje pan pa-bielarusku lacinkaj?

Sim0nSs

SD писал(а):

The very fact that I address you in English represents one of the main dangers for Belarus people - the total melt down as a nation by the dominant economic and political power from the East. Put simply, there are only 200-300 000 belarusians left in the entire world today who pursue their lives in Belarus language preserving thereby Belarus nation from the complete extinction.

You simply didn't manage to create a high-level cultural output to compete with world best Russian literature. This is main threat. Not Russian tanks, missiles, infantry or self-proppeled artillery but Dostoyevski, Pushkin and Gogol with their awesome impact. It is not only your problem, Ukraine is endangered in the same way. Solution is to remind future generations about the past and our common successful history, full of victories and triumphs. We must find a cure against inferiority complex.

Цитата:

Today our disappearance as a nation is certain if everything is left down to the primitive ruling cleptocracy in Minsk. However, not many people on both sides of the Bug river realise that these two problems are interconnected, that the illegitimate, weak and incapable political leadership in Minsk is actually a means of maintaining the long standing political and economic dominance by the eastern Big Brother.

It seems to be true. Are there any chances of changing this situation?

Цитата:

Even though you think that Poland is at the forefront of the richest countries in the world as matter of fact it is not.

Absolutely not, this is misunderstanding. I wrote that Poland is NOT at the forefront of the richest countries. It supposed to be an euphemism expressing our weak financial condition, based on permament debt borrowing.

Цитата:

The sovereign debt crisis in the Euro zone is not to go away either.

We came to another issue of European Union; personally I am an enemy of this structure (by the way extremely similar to USRR). Based on regulations and central planning, is is a new, better version of Soviet Union (with still wealthy, but almost dead societes). I can show you 1000 or even more absurdities of this omnipotent and useless sh*t, i can show you how it affects economies of once wealthy and well-organized states. New Polish proverb created due to our accession there: Yesterday Moscow, today Brussels.

Margaret Thatcher said that "EU is a German racket designed to take over the whole of Europe". That's why they pay for this utopian project. I have nothing to add on this matter.

Poland joining Euro is like Poland stepping into the grave.

Sim0nSs

Andrej Cieraszkou' писал(а):

my razumiejem pa-polsku
ci razumieje pan pa-bielarusku lacinkaj?

Tak, rozumiem dość dobrze gdy piszecie po białorusku w alfabecie łacińskim. Jeśli komuś tak łatwiej niż po angielsku to piszcie śmiało, ja odpowiem, po polsku.

Монро писал(а):

You need polish opponents. I need polish friends

You're welcome :)

Woloh

Here is an idea, people!

Pan Jin, you recently mentioned how Icelanders drafted their new constitution online. How about we do a similar thing between Poles and Belarusans? The older Confederation was a leader of the European democracy. Why don't we to try lead with New Age people's democracy and diplomacy again?

Lukashenko may stay in power for an unpredictable amount of time. This should not stop us from talking.

My question is to Kurmanbek and to SD - do you guys think we can organize an online drafting of the Treaty of Confederation in several languages, with per-chapter voting? and how to do it? I know that's not easy - but that could be an exciting task to solve.

Imagine a Treaty of Confederation drafted by ordinary Poles and Belarusans. And f*ck those guys on top. Organize a draft as an article on our front page with a corresponding forum - maybe this one. This process will make headlines on both sides of the fence.

Woloh

Sim0nSs писал(а):

And it will be difficult for me to invite anyone from Poland on this forum, as long as its language is Russian.

Pan Sim0nSs mae racyju.

We need to at least translate our registration into English.

Монро

Sim0nSs писал(а):

SD писал(а):

The very fact that I address to you in English represents one of the main dangers for Belarus people - the total melt down as a nation by the dominant economic and political power from the East. Put simply, there are only 200-300 000 belarusians left in the entire world who pursue their lives in Belarus language preserving thereby Belarus nation from the complete extinction.

You simply didn't manage to create a high-level cultural output to compete with world best Russian literature. This is main threat. Not Russian tanks, missiles, infantry or self-proppeled artillery but Dostoyevski, Pushkin and Gogol with their awesome impact. It is not only your problem, Ukraine is endangered in the same way. Solution is to remind future generations about the past and our common successful history, full of victories and triumphs. We must find a cure against inferiority complex.
****************

For the beginning, I propose to establish on the base of the idea of confederation Poland and Belarus to create a site for Poles and Belarussians in two or three languages (Polish, Belarusian, Russian).
Objective: To work together to disseminate information about the two countries, to publish articles on the history of two countries, about life in the countries, about modern problems. There's also a forum for citizens of both countries. Such an idea.
What do you think about it ?

Andrej Cieraszkou'

Монро писал(а):

For the beginning, I propose to establish on the base of the idea of confederation Poland and Belarus to create a site for Poles and Belarussians in two or three languages (Polish, Belarusian, Russian).
Objective: To work together to disseminate information about the two countries, to publish articles on the history of two countries, about life in the countries, about modern problems. There's also a forum for citizens of both countries. Such an idea.
What do you think about it ?

Niama patreby rabic' sajt pa-rasiejsku. Dla palakau' pa-polsku, a bielarus praczytaje pa-bielarusku. Rasiejcy nam pakul nie cikavyja.

Woloh

Well, if we want a result, and not a useless show-off, I would say we need to talk in Polish, English, and Russian for now. When you sign a treaty it could be in Polish and Belarusan - but for now let's not be delusional and stay in real world.

1) 100% of Poles speak Polish - fact
2) 90% of Belarusans will NOT effectively and easily write in Belarusan - fact
3) 100% of Belarusans speak Russian - fact
4) We need English as a mutually understood language for check-ups and to avoid miscommunication - fact

Our aim is to engage everyone - both opponents, and proponents of the idea. Otherwise what's the point?

If you want to write in Belarusan - you are more then welcome. But at this point I don't think we have a way without English.

Монро

agree

Andrej Cieraszkou'

Woloh писал(а):

Well, if we want a result, and not a useless show-off, I would say we need to talk in Polish, English, and Russian for now. When you sign a treaty it could be in Polish and Belarusan - but for now let's not be delusional and stay in real world.

1) 100% of Poles speak Polish - fact
2) 90% of Belarusans will NOT effectively and easily write in Belarusan - fact
3) 100% of Belarusans speak Russian - fact
4) We need English as a mutually understood language for check-ups and to avoid miscommunication - fact

Our aim is to engage everyone - both opponents, and proponents of the idea. Otherwise what's the point?

If you want to write in Belarusan - you are more then welcome. But at this point I don't think we have a way without English.

Kali Vas zadavalniaje anglamou'ny mizsabojczyk, kali laska, ia adpisvajusia. Ja pa-angielsku czytaju slaba, razumieju jaszcze mieniej. Liczu, szto razmova bielarusa z palakam pa-angielsku - bzdura, kali bielarus razumieje pa-polsku, a palak - pa-bielarusku. Varta vyciskac' z' siabie kompleks niepau'navartasci pierad "vialikiaj i zachlivaj" angielskaj movaj, naszyja movy niczym nia horszyja.

Papiaredzvaju: zasiarodzanas'c' na rasiejskaj i angielskaj marginalizuje hety prajekt adrazu. Bolsz za toje - nacyjanalisty hety prajekt pachavajuc' u vymuszanaj sadruznas'ci z Lukaszenkam.
Karystajciesia mahczymas'ciu adrazu u'stalavac' pravily hulni dla bielarusau': choczasz udzielniczac' u prajekcie - pierachodz' na zrazumieluju dla abodvuch bakou' bielaruskuju movu :ry_car:

mogdmb

Sim0nSs писал(а):

mogdmb писал(а):

2 Sim0nSs

What do you consider to be a possible mission for Confederation as well as the primary objectives of unification?

The main (and ofc. possible) mission for future Confederation is to become a modern, free-market Union. We must transform Belarus from old-fashioned paternal autocracy into competitive western economy. It is not only possible, but it is necessary. Years of stagnation and patterns from Soviet Union ruined your economy, however, the mental destruction in your heads is even more disastrous. I see it all the time when I observe older generation, brought up in socialism. The first thing is to change people attitude towards life! You must become an enterprising and flexible nation, to use your potential on 100% (now it is maybe 10%, or even less). This is the point.

Primary objectives of unification:

* common defence plan, common army
* modern economy, focused on high technologies, mining, forestry
* common foreign policy
* becoming a noteworthy country for global players
* an introduction to even bigger confederation, including Ukraine

And that are only my first thoughts.

Thank you for the answer. Still I've got some more questions:

What kind of potential(s) do you see in Belarus and Belarussians?

What could be the input of Belarus into the common activities of Confederation, taking in consideration our current level of development?

Where do you see the place for those who will be not able to use their potential ( or don't want to, or don't have any) and for those who will be not able to transform old patterns?

Woloh

Andrej Cieraszkou' писал(а):

Kali Vas zadavalniaje anglamou'ny mizsabojczyk, kali laska, ia adpisvajusia. Ja pa-angielsku czytaju slaba, razumieju jaszcze mieniej. Liczu, szto razmova bielarusa z palakam pa-angielsku - bzdura, kali bielarus razumieje pa-polsku, a palak - pa-bielarusku. Varta byciskac' z' siabie kompleks niepau'navartasci pierad "vialikiaj i zachlivaj" angielskaj movaj, naszyja movy niczym nia horszyja.

Papiaredzvaju: zasiarodzanas'c' na rasiejskaj i angielskaj marginalizuje hety prajekt adrazu. Bolsz za toje - nacyjanalisty hety prajekt pachavajuc' u vymuszanaj sadruznas'ci z Lukaszenkam.
Karystajciesia mahczymas'ciu adrazu u'stalavac' pravily hulni dla bielarusau': choczasz udzielniczac' u prajekcie - pierachodz' na zrazumieluju dla abodvuch bakou' bielaruskuju movu :ry_car:

Kalilaska, pishyce belaruskaj movaj - nichto ne zabaranjae. Ya toljki kazhu, shto zaraz vykljuchac' angeljskuyu - ne rjeal'na.

Woloh

It is kinda funny to write a forum in English, Polish, and Latin Belarusan - I can see how "overseers" crap in their pants by having a difficulty to understand what we are talking here about :ps_ih:

Woloh

2 Sim0nSs

Please keep in mind that same as in Poland, we have people of very different views here :). Please don't be surprised if there would be both positive, and negative reactions, both pro-Russian, pro-Polish, and pro-independent, both pro-Lukashenko... (ehhh, nehhh - we don't have pro-Lukashenko, so you can skip this one at least :mi_ga_et:

)

And btw - thanks a lot for coming through our Russian registration! Appreciated! And welcome on board!

vanderToki

Woloh писал(а):

Well, if we want a result, and not a useless show-off, I would say we need to talk in Polish, English, and Russian for now. When you sign a treaty it could be in Polish and Belarusan - but for now let's not be delusional and stay in real world.

1) 100% of Poles speak Polish - fact
2) 90% of Belarusans will NOT effectively and easily write in Belarusan - fact
3) 100% of Belarusans speak Russian - fact
4) We need English as a mutually understood language for check-ups and to avoid miscommunication - fact

Our aim is to engage everyone - both opponents, and proponents of the idea. Otherwise what's the point?

If you want to write in Belarusan - you are more then welcome. But at this point I don't think we have a way without English.

Можна добавить и дальшие пункта:
5) совсем много поляков понимает русский (на пример я), но к сожалени 6) очень немного людей здесь говорит по-беларусски. С другой стороны, иногда этот язык нам нетрудно понимать. Но Вы правы, английский, кажется, пока самый лучший вариант.

Woloh

vanderToki писал(а):

Можна добавить и дальшие пункта:
5) совсем много поляков понимает русский (на пример я), но к сожалени 6) очень немного людей здесь говорит по-беларусски. С другой стороны, иногда этот язык нам нетрудно понимать. Но Вы правы, английский, кажется, пока самый лучший вариант.

Przywitanie, vanderToki!

Welcome on board!

Andrej Cieraszkou'

Woloh писал(а):

Papiaredzvaju: zasiarodzanas'c' na rasiejskaj i angielskaj marginalizuje hety prajekt adrazu. Bolsz za toje - nacyjanalisty hety prajekt pachavajuc' u vymuszanaj sadruznas'ci z Lukaszenkam.
Karystajciesia mahczymas'ciu adrazu u'stalavac' pravily hulni dla bielarusau': choczasz udzielniczac' u prajekcie - pierachodz' na zrazumieluju dla abodvuch bakou' bielaruskuju movu :ry_car:

Kalilaska, pishyce belaruskaj movaj - nichto ne zabaranjae. Ya toljki kazhu, shto zaraz vykljuchac' angeljskuyu - ne rjeal'na.[/quote]

Kali ja nie mahu u' pou'naj miery razumiec' napisanaje, to ja nie mahu pau'navartasna u'dzielniczac' u dyskusii. Moza, mnie czytac' forum praz Google Translate?

Монро

Andrej Cieraszkou' писал(а):

Woloh писал(а):

Papiaredzvaju: zasiarodzanas'c' na rasiejskaj i angielskaj marginalizuje hety prajekt adrazu. Bolsz za toje - nacyjanalisty hety prajekt pachavajuc' u vymuszanaj sadruznas'ci z Lukaszenkam.
Karystajciesia mahczymas'ciu adrazu u'stalavac' pravily hulni dla bielarusau': choczasz udzielniczac' u prajekcie - pierachodz' na zrazumieluju dla abodvuch bakou' bielaruskuju movu :ry_car:

Kalilaska, pishyce belaruskaj movaj - nichto ne zabaranjae. Ya toljki kazhu, shto zaraz vykljuchac' angeljskuyu - ne rjeal'na.

Kali ja nie mahu u' pou'naj miery razumiec' napisanaje, to ja nie mahu pau'navartasna u'dzielniczac' u dyskusii. Moza, mnie czytac' forum praz Google Translate?[/quote]

:a_g_a:

http://translate.google.ru/

Andrej Cieraszkou'

vanderToki писал(а):

совсем много поляков понимает русский (на пример я), но к сожалени 6) очень немного людей здесь говорит по-беларусски. С другой стороны, иногда этот язык нам нетрудно понимать. Но Вы правы, английский, кажется, пока самый лучший вариант.

Heta panu ciazka budzie zrazumiec', ale 100% bielarusau' viedajuc' bielaruskuju movu, u tym liku i tyja, chto pisza tut. Czamu nie havorac'? Kompleks niejki siadzic' u halovach, nia mohuc' pieraadolec'. Kalanijalnaja spadczyna. :;ne_gr:

Vialikija bielyja ludzi (szto puskajuc' vohniennyja strely) razmaulajuc' pa-rasiejsku i pa-angielsku. Lukaszenka liczyc' hetaksama, jon pra heta jaszcze u' 1995-m hodzie kazau'. :wo_ol:

Woloh

Ok, davajce pakinem pytanne movy!
A to gjeta peratvarycca u toe zh glupstva, shto bylo u 90-x, kali zamest budaunictva krainy wsja apazicyja byla pameshana na move.

Velmi prostae pravila - adkazyvaj tak, kab cjabe panjali. Use inshae - drugasnae i nalezhyc' da inshaga topiku.

vanderToki

Woloh писал(а):

Przywitanie, vanderToki!

Welcome on board!

Ну, привет... Я искал какой-нибудь темы, где бы я могл приветствовать со всеми, но я не нашёл, так и написал первый пост здесь. ; ) Я буду писал по-польски, по-русски или по-английский (как уже сказал, к сожалению не знаю беларусского :( ). Но я только учусь руского, так, когдо буду хотел писать что-то серьёзного, буду говорить по-английский.
So, the idea of the Polish-Belarussian union itself seems to be great, I felt quite nice when I heard about it. Still I'm not sure if it would work out in today's situation. And is it really necessary? I'm afraid that in such union one of the nations would be in worse situation. Just remember on Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów or look at UK, at Scotland or Wales nowadays. I think that Belarus of course needs political and economical changes which would let them take care of themselves on their own. As independent country, without any dictator, with normal economy, Belarus could be a great, friendly partner for Poland and other neighbours - not necessarily as a part of union. ; )

Andrej Cieraszkou писал(а):

Heta panu ciazka budzie zrazumiec', ale 100% bielarusau' viedajuc' bielaruskuju movu, u tym liku i tyja, chto pisza tut. Czamu nie havorac'? Kompleks niejki siadzic' u halovach, nia mohuc' pieraadolec'. Kalanijalnaja spadczyna. Vialikija bielyja ludzi (szto puskajuc' vohniennyja strely) razmaulajuc' pa-rasiejsku i pa-angielsku. Lukaszenka liczyc' hetaksama, jon pra heta jaszcze u' 1995-m hodzie kazau'.

Hey, of course I didn't mean you shouldn't speak Belarussian. ; ) I even think you should use it as your native language. I wrote it only in the context of communication here at this site, between people of different nations - as Woloh wrote it before: "mutually understood language". ; )

Andrej Cieraszkou'

vanderToki писал(а):

Hey, of course I didn't mean you shouldn't speak Belarussian. ; ) I even think you should use it as your native language. I wrote it only in the context of communication here at this site, between people of different nations - as Woloh wrote it before: "mutually understood language". ; )

Ja uzo pisau', my razumiejem pa-polsku. Movy blizkija :uch_tiv:

Andrej Cieraszkou'

Woloh писал(а):

Ok, davajce pakinem pytanne movy!
A to gjeta peratvarycca u toe zh glupstva, shto bylo u 90-x, kali zamest budaunictva krainy wsja apazicyja byla pameshana na move.

Velmi prostae pravila - adkazyvaj tak, kab cjabe panjali. Use inshae - drugasnae i nalezhyc' da inshaga topiku.

Woloh, respekt za vydatnuju movu. I apladysmenty za post. Ja taksama liczu, szto napisanaje music' byc' zrazumiela dla usich. My nie z Senegalam prajekt ladzim, a z blizkim narodam z blizkaj movaj. Tamu nia varta prydumlac' dadatkovyja prablemy. Z zadavalnien'niem zakryju hetuju temu.

Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi

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