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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 03 фев 2015, 01:19 
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Последний раз редактировалось Narimantas 09 апр 2015, 21:37, всего редактировалось 1 раз.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 03 фев 2015, 19:29 
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Зарегистрирован: 31 авг 2010, 23:41
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Neh, Luka is never invading Ukraine. On the opposite, he increasingly throws more weight in support of Ukraine. Look, just yesterday was the news that Luka is about to make his first ever state visit to Georgia. Georgia! The same country Russia has had a war against just few years ago.

Go to the website of the Belarusian foreign ministry. Open the official world map on it - Crimea is still Ukrainian there. It wouldn't be anything extraordinary for any other country - maybe they just use an old map - but for the last remaining military ally of Russia... It's kinda a statement.

Lastly, have you noticed this whole story with shelling of Mariupol? It was kinda important. Basically, Russia has decided to stop having "peace meeting" over Donbass in Minsk, and instead have the next one in Astana, Kazakhstan. Nazarbaev has even traveled to Merkel to discuss details of this upcoming meeting. But for some reason both Washington and Kiev really want to continue those meetings in Minsk. (Why? I don't know. But apparently it's important for them). Washington has pressed on Merkel, and the Kazakhstan meeting was cancelled. Russia got so much pissed off that it just started a "tantrum attack" on Ukrainian forces. By no logical mean they need that Mariupol, nor they have enough power to take it - but they just wanted to "cause trouble" as a revenge for ignoring Moscow's demands. Moscow wanted to show that when it is not listened to, it will be causing problems. They didn't kill any Ukrainian soldiers, but instead got two dozens of civilians dead and about 80 wounded. And many of them are former pro-Russians.

Interestingly, through all those events the Belarusian Foreign Office stayed very cool, and kept saying that "Minsk agreements have to be fulfilled by both parties". How the hell the knew that the "Minsk agreements" will stay intact, and not get replaced by new "Astana agreements" while Russia was actively advocating it? Luka knows something about Russia, and that's where his bold behavior comes from.

Moreover, even his advisers now became a bit more macho in talking about Russia. They are going to go to Russia to ask for more money in the coming months. When a journalist asked them "what if Russia doesn't give this time", they responded "she has no choice"...

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 04 фев 2015, 10:16 
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Последний раз редактировалось Narimantas 09 апр 2015, 21:37, всего редактировалось 1 раз.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 04 фев 2015, 16:20 
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Зарегистрирован: 31 авг 2010, 23:41
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Hey, I've seen this article but lost my access to the Stratfor account. Can you re-post it into here? Thanks!

Luka has strong instincts. He wouldn't go if it was the case. But Moscow is surely pissed.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 18:25 
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Зарегистрирован: 06 июл 2015, 17:28
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Dear Friends from Belarus and Poland: welcome and greetings from Ireland. I'm a Polish doctor living currently in Dublin.
From my point of view, the idea of confederation is very attractive for both of our nations.
It is nothing else like coming back to our history. History of great victories, history of freedom, history of real independence.
I think, that the time is high to start the discussion about this issue.
I'm very sure, it is still possible for us to live together and aim the stars together, like few hundred years ago.
Only together we can be a great power again. Confederation is also one and only way to protect REAL independence of our countries.
I don't know current political situation in Belarus. I mean, I know who is Aleksander Łukaszenko, but I have no idea what is his real perception in Belarus.
Looking at Lukaszenko regime from the perspective of official Polish goverment propaganda seems inappropriate for me. So, direct opinions from Belaraus about your current goverment will be very precious for me. To make the situation clear - I'm not a big fan of democratic fetish and I do not consider democracy as a best way to rule the country. Unfortunately - the percentage of really clever people is quite low in all countries, but everyone con vote! That's why I'm monarchist and I pray for return of the king for my country.
From the other hand - I know very well current political situation in Poland. And after our access to European Union I do not consider anymore my country as independent state.
In fact - Poland is now a part of Fourth Reich, this time build by Germans in completely paceful maneer (excluding destroying Yugoslavia - but it was more special espionage operation than real German war).
Let me know, please - what is the current political situation in Belarus? Are you dependent from Russia on similar way, like Poland is dependent from Brussel (sorry - Berlin!)?
Is Belarus more independent than Poland in your opinion?
Your comments will be higly appreciated.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 18:44 
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Как показала практика которая есть лучшим критерием истины, Берлин, тьфу Брюссель есть не худшим местом для принятия важных решений. По крайней мере последние 30-40 лет.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 18:52 
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Зарегистрирован: 23 дек 2010, 12:43
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Hello Miecznik.
If the Fourth Reich - EU
then we have a big problem with the fifth reich - "Russian world"


PS. And who put him on the throne of the king? ))))
Candidates have?

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 19:30 
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Зарегистрирован: 06 июл 2015, 17:28
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Waserdast писал(а):
You perceive Russia as the historic enemy. The unification of Belarus and Poland on the basis of the idea of a common enemy road to nowhere and should not consider this unification as the ultimate goal, but only as one of the links of the chain, followed which should be considered the accession of Western Russia to the economic and political Union of the new Polish state. Task-the creation of a powerful center of political gravity to surrounding countries. That is why we should stick to our multi-vector in relation to the neighbouring countries and does not apply to Russia as an enemy, but as a partner.


Good point, but I'm affraid that this is totally unreal.
Russia and Poland are historical enemies not because there is any hate between Polish and Russian nations. Absolutely not!
We are enemies because we belong to two different civilisation types. Poland belongs to Latin civilisation and Russia to Turan civilisation. As we represent two completely different civilisaton types, any agreement between us is simply impossible.
Impossible, because our way of thinking is totaly different. Russians believe in power, Poles believe in freedom and law. And indeed, the freedom and law were the factors attracting Lithuanian nobles to the idea of Two Nations Republic. Law means the guarantee of personal protection against the autocratism and despotism.
Ruler in Poland was obliged at the first place to obey the law and protect the freedom of the citizens. That is Latin civilisation. In Turan civilisation model, the law is only piece of paper - the power is the real law. And communism changed absolutely nothing in this.
I really recommend the works of Feliks Koneczny - his teories explain perfectly why any union between Poles and Russians is not possible under any circuumstances.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliks_Koneczny
There is completely different situation with people on Belarus and Western part of Ucraine. Because of 400 years of our common history you are a part of Latin civilisation now and even latest dark period of communism wasn't able to change your way of thinking which is same like the Polish one.
The greatest value for you and us is FREEDOM and that's why we can cooperate in common political organism.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 19:30 
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Miecznik писал(а):
Dear Friends from Belarus and Poland: welcome and greetings from Ireland. I'm a Polish doctor living currently in Dublin.

Hey, pan Miecznik. Welcome to Brama!

You ask a difficult question. Obviously, you'll see very different opinions on that matter, including here.

As your fellow countryman, pan Olek, just mentioned - practice is the criteria of truth. The practice (data) shows that Belarus lives 3-4 times better than Ukraine, or most of others ex-Soviet republics, even surpassing oil-rich Russia in some elements. It also surpasses such EU members as Bulgaria, or Romania (or rather at par with Romania since lately). At the same time it trails Poland, Czech Republic, or Hungary by about 20-30%.

Yet, it's just the economy. The main problem of Belarus, however, is the process of the national formation, which is yet unfinished, and it's far not clear if Belarus would be able to stand as strong against Russia, as Ukraine did (not from the point of a firepower, but from the point of national firmness, unity). It is a very difficult subject matter that includes such drastically different legacies as that of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Rzeczpospolita I on the one hand, and the Soviet BSSR, and many centuries of non-stop bloodbath on the other. It might produce a flower, or a might produce a monster, or even some combination of both.

As for your point re a confederation, what looks increasingly obvious to many people from Black to Adriatic to Baltic seas, is that all these countries need some greater level of autonomy and respect for their way of life, and their choices, including the right for their own mistakes. They all want to be more independent, to be able to build their own future the way they see it - from Hungary, to Ukraine, to Poland, to Belarus, to Romania - and to achieve this they align themselves with one big power, or another. But the trick is that those big outside powers will always keep our interests as secondary, and the only way to achieve a true independence is by doing it ourselves - but we'll have to help each other on this way. We'll need to develop our own rules of engagement: how and where we work as one, and how and where we preserve our own untouchable part.

Even monarchy might not be a bad idea. But we should not repeat the mistakes of Austria-Hungary, for example.

In my opinion this region is evolving toward some kind of a network, but some of its key elements are still missing.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 20:04 
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papa-fi писал(а):
Hello Miecznik.
If the Fourth Reich - EU
then we have a big problem with the fifth reich - "Russian world"


PS. And who put him on the throne of the king? ))))
Candidates have?



Unfortunately, all polish goverments since 1989 went tolally wrong way in my opinion.
They thought, that there is no other alternative to Poland as to become a part of Western world, to protect the country under Russian domination in the future.
The result is rather sad. We are now in NATO and in EU, but for me it is only replacing one dependency to another.
Instead of Russian soldiers, we've got now appox 20.000 of American soldiers in our country.
Tell me, please - what the hell is the difference? :-)
Official position of Polish goverment is, that they protect our freedom, but EXACTLY THE SAME THING I've heard about Russians befrore 1989.
Obviously, I strongly prefer McDonald's over Gulag :-): but the problem is, that the choice, we've got is still very limited.
Confederation between Poland, Belarus and Western Ucraine could give us a possibilty to walk on our own way, to be a 100% independent force and to execute our strategic goals without looking for acceptation from any foreign capital.

Now about the king. :k_i_n_g:
I'm affraid, that monarchism is not very popular idea in Poland. 50 years of communist brain washing and now so called European Democracy brain washing were quite effective.
I can imagine that monarchism is also totally exotic political idea in Belarus! :)
Now people in Poland believe in democratic fetish, and people like me, praying for return of the king are extremely small and very exotic, indeed. minority. :)
Who we plan to coronate? We don't know yet. But I'm pretty sure, this time there will be no such stupid thing like king's election. We should come to some conclusions from our history, I'm I right?
So, in my opinion, the king's power is coming directly from God, not from people's votes.
The future king has no idea yet, that he is a king. But there will be a moment of truth when God will give us His Majesty.
So far, polish Excalibur is still in the rock and is still awaiting polish Arthur. :-):


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 06 июл 2015, 20:38 
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Woloh писал(а):
(Belarus) also surpasses such EU members as Bulgaria, or Romania (or rather at par with Romania since lately). At the same time it trails Poland, Czech Republic, or Hungary by about 20-30%.


I wouldn't be so sure of that.
In fact, your economy can be much more healhty and strong, than you think.
It's all about the internal distribution of National Income.
Looking for just bare figures, you are right, but the facts about Polish economy are qute different.
First and foremost: THIS IS NOT POLISH ECONOMY! Not anymore. After 1989 Polish goverments sold about 90% of our economy to foreign hands. As a result - for example more than 90% of banking sector is now controlled by Jews, Germans, Americans and so on, the same with power plants, practically with everything.
Hungary? Same story of colonial exploitation. Can you imagine that in Budapest people pay for the WATER FROM DANUBE to the French company???
So - they give you figures of entire economy. Good looking, indeed. But they will not tell you, that today Polish economy is not in Polish hands anymore.
As a result - the income is leaving Poland. They need only Polish slaves working in they factories for a handful of peanuts and stupid Poles buying foreign things in foreign shops like Lidl or Biedronka (Biedronka wear Polish name but it's a Portugal company).
The foreign companies do not pay taxes in Poland. They use many tricks to avoid Polish taxes. So, the money are leaving Poland. Nothing left for Polish preople.
It looks nice on the paper but the reality is much more complicated and rather sad as you can see.
Your general income can be less, but 100% of it stays in Belarus!!! So citizen of your contry has much more from the economy than citizen in Poland who is a subject of colonial exploitaton nowadays.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 11 июл 2015, 04:09 
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Зарегистрирован: 06 июл 2015, 17:28
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Anyone alive here? :)


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 11 июл 2015, 09:08 
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Miecznik писал(а):
Woloh писал(а):
(Belarus) also surpasses such EU members as Bulgaria, or Romania (or rather at par with Romania since lately). At the same time it trails Poland, Czech Republic, or Hungary by about 20-30%.


I wouldn't be so sure of that.
In fact, your economy can be much more healhty and strong, than you think.

You just do not know. that the Belarusian economy is sitting on oil and gas needle Russian. Cheap oil and gas (half the world market price) and the Russian market - is the basis of the Belarusian economy. Once the oil and gas will go for the price for Poland and Ukraine, the Belarusian economy in its current form will be three months. And then we will have to start to build the model of the Polish economy

It's all about the internal distribution of National Income.

Now distributed profits from the use of cheap Russian oil and gas. these revenues are the main income of the Belarusian state. Without them, there is simply nothing to distribute.

Looking for just bare figures, you are right, but the facts about Polish economy are qute different.
First and foremost: THIS IS NOT POLISH ECONOMY! Not anymore. After 1989 Polish goverments sold about 90% of our economy to foreign hands. As a result - for example more than 90% of banking sector is now controlled by Jews, Germans, Americans and so on, the same with power plants, practically with everything.

In order to reform the former socialist Polish economy needed huge funds. Poland got them - hundreds of billions of dollars and euros into the country through the banking sector and direct investment in the economy. Nobody forbids Poles to buy the old and build new plants. But the Poles is simply no money. Money was the Jews and Germans, as you write. Besides the money, you get free access to the European market, which now supplies most of your goods. Another option - it is the economy of North Korea. In today's world, countries are fighting for the right to receive investment

Hungary? Same story of colonial exploitation. Can you imagine that in Budapest people pay for the WATER FROM DANUBE to the French company???

You can dream about anything, but at the time there was no other variants neither Poland nor Hungary. The former socialist economies of Hungary and Poland could not compete with the economies of the Western world. It was therefore decided to become a part of the economy of the Western world. As I said above, is another option - to close the economic borders of the castle, put the machine gunners - an economy such as North Korea.

So - they give you figures of entire economy. Good looking, indeed. But they will not tell you, that today Polish economy is not in Polish hands anymore.

someone bothers Poles build their own new plants and factories, or redeem old factories and invest in them?

As a result - the income is leaving Poland.

it's true.
foreign investors have withdrawn from the Polish-earned capital.
But in Poland is much more - it's taxes and wages


They need only Polish slaves working in they factories for a handful of peanuts and stupid Poles buying foreign things in foreign shops like Lidl or Biedronka (Biedronka wear Polish name but it's a Portugal company).

It's very simple - to produce quality products on their own. Build factories for their money by competing in global markets. Who's stopping you? Make your tractor Ursus better and cheaper than Claas. If you do not know and can not - you lose in the competition, and throw out the workers to unemployment, another option - Claas let you come and invest in the production of their tractors.


The foreign companies do not pay taxes in Poland. They use many tricks to avoid Polish taxes. So, the money are leaving Poland. Nothing left for Polish preople.

if 90% of the economy in Poland owned by foreigners who do not pay any taxes - what do you then fill the budget?
:nez-nayu:

It looks nice on the paper but the reality is much more complicated and rather sad as you can see.

We want your problems instead of our problems :cry_ing:

Your general income can be less, but 100% of it stays in Belarus!!!

As I wrote above - basic income of Belarus - from cheap (half of your) oil and gas from Russia. Without it, there will come a catastrophe in Belarus, and we will have to be repeated from scratch your way.
:ny_tik:
So citizen of your contry has much more from the economy than citizen in Poland who is a subject of colonial exploitaton nowadays.

I'll tell you something that you do not know. The current Belarusian economy does not exist. it is - a part of the Russian economy. As a result - Belarus is totally dependent on Russia. It is an existential threat to Belarus itself. That is why we often see a way out of this situation in creating economy Intermarum (where there is no claim to the sovereignty of Belarus), which in turn is part of the big Western economies


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: 1[0] Добавлено: 12 июл 2015, 12:20 
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Зарегистрирован: 06 июл 2015, 17:28
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Dear Максим Равский.
Thank you kindly for your opinion.
It's always good to discuss alternatives and this word "alternatives" should be a base of our further considerations.
So, dear Максим, what alternative you see for Belarus?
In fact - there is no alerative for your country in your way of thinking.
Now, we can consider Belarus as a part of Russian politico-economical construction. Let's be honest - your bat'ko Łukaszenka has not to much field for independent political decisions. Especially, if we are talking about foreign politics. For beeing a Russian supporter he has a cheap gas and oil. This is the price paid by Putin for Belarussian support. Not only this. Now Belarus is main exporter of many agricultural and food goods to Russia: apples, fish and other seafood and many others. Mainly it's re-export, of course, but anyway, you make a REAL money on this business. Good for you.
From the other hand: the price paid by Aleksander Łukaszenka and Belarus for russian benefits is common in EU opinion of "last european dictatorship" and accusations of lack of democratic freedom in your country.
To be honest - I'm not a greatest democracy supporter and I totally agree with bat'ko Luka that: "It is better to be a dictator, than to be a gay!". Good point, indeed! :-)
In the same Youtube clip Łukaszenka is sharing very important and very true opinion: POLISH MAIN POLITICS ARE NOT POLISH! He is right, unfortunately. Current Polish goverment is not working for Polish people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_iK-7sE0Mo
Let's go back to alternatives: I understand, that you'd prefer to left Russian Gulag and relocate to American McDonald's. OK, I prefer McDonald's over Gulag as well, no doubt.
But - it is a real alternative? Just think!
I'm a citizen of Poland - country, you, as I understand, want to follow on the way from East to West.
OK - you will change Gulag for McDonald's. And what's then?
What exactly changes you expect in "new Belarus"?
Democracy? Sorry! Forget it! There is no real democracy in Poland. Practically all mainstream politics are foreign agents. They work for Russians, Germans, Americans, Jews, but never for Polish people!
However, there is one positive change on this field since 2015 - they are not able to falsify elections results anymore. Polish Election Control Movement (Ruch Kontroli Wyborów) is protecting our country now and politcs can not change election results on so simply way, as it was before.
But the main problem is, that real rulers of Poland - the Secret Police officers working for foreign countries listed above - still control mainstream political parties and try to create new ones like Platforma Demokratyczna, Ruch Palikota or Samoobrona few years ago and now Nowoczesna.pl, Ruch Kukiza and Partia Stonoga.
If you are a real Polish patriot, if you want to work for your country and people with clean hands and heart like Grzegorz Braun or Marian Kowalski, the mainstream politics will do everything to block you access to newspapers, television, radio, even to internet. Thanks God, internet is a free medium and at the moment it's one and only independent source of information in Poland. And only in internet you can meet real Polish patriots talking freely - over the informational blockage.
What else you expect for "new Belarus"?
Economical freedom? Again: forget it! There is no economical freedom in Poland!
Why? Just give me few hours - I'm going to the church and then for some shopping.
I will continue our discussion after coming back.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
Сообщение Рейтинг поста: [ ] Добавлено: 12 июл 2015, 22:39 
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Зарегистрирован: 06 июл 2015, 17:28
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So, what about the economical freedom in Poland.
We are in the same point like Belarus - no economical freedom in our country.
Initially, just before transformation controlled by Kremlin & KGB/GRU last communist cabinet (leaded by prime minister Rakowski) introduced so called Wilczek's Law (Ustawa Wilczka).
Guy named Mieczysław Wilczek (working as Minister of Industry in Rakowski's cabinet) has been ordered by polish dictator, murder and Kremlin governor -general Jaruzelski to introduce new law, allowing all Polish people to perform whatever business they want. As per Wilczek's memoirs, general Jaruzelski wanted only one thing: there should be nothing against socialism in this law. So, Wilczek prepared the law, which destroyed socialism to bare ground, without using the word "socialism".
It was real revolution! Law was crazy simple, and allowing all Polish people to do any business they want, if they activities are not harming law.
Sorryfor the fragment in Polish language, but it is really worth to be showed here, as Wilczek was just pure genius! :-:ok:-:

Art. 1 „Podejmowanie i prowadzenie działalności gospodarczej jest wolne i dozwolone każdemu na równych prawach, z zachowaniem warunków określonych przepisami prawa.”

Art. 4 „Podmioty gospodarcze mogą w ramach prowadzonej działalności gospodarczej dokonywać czynności i działań, które nie są przez prawo zabronione.”

In short words: what is not forbidden by law - is allowed! Simple and genial! Even in Western countries freedom of business law was never so simple and so liberal. Maybe in XIX Century...
Obviously, there were a few exceptions. You needed to obtain a licence from goverment for business activities potentially dangerous for the citizens.
So, activities licensed by goverment were for example: production and distribution of weapons, explosives, toxic products (poisons, chemicals), medicines etc. I think, it's perfectly acceptable.
As you can see - our start was quite good. People in Poland started doing business and today some of them are really rich men. I know a guy, who started that time from ZERO and now he owns a few private planes, helicopter, and palace on Tenerife. He started to produce a beverages. Now his multiple companies own over 800 distribution cars and he is employer for multiple thousands of people. So, in theory - if you are smart enough, if you are creative and hard working - the world can be yours.
Not anymore.
Next cabinets (so called "democratic") started to change Wilczek's Law. And, what you think? In what direction? To make it even easier for people doing business? NO! All the changes went in direction to limit business possibilities in Poland!
Why? How it is possible?
Simple: they realised that concessions can be a perfect source of corruption income and they wanted to keep some particular business activities in hands of ex-communist Secret Police and their agents.
As a result: from totally liberal business freedom we are now in situation, when 211 (YES -211!!!) sorts of business activity (not particular activities - entire sorts of it!) are limited by goverment. You even can not be a tourist guide in Poland without goverment's blessing! You can not open real estate agency without licence - why???
At the same time - the foreign companies are doing in Poland whatever they want. They are untouchable. They transfer a billions of euros from polish economy to their countries, they avoid to pay taxes in Poland.
Polish taxpayer is regullary bullied by Revenue and one hundred other state agencies. There is no positive atmosphere to do business in Poland anymore.
People from Poland are opening companies in Czech Republic, in UK, in Ireland. Biggest Polish buisnesses are relocating to tax paradises.
That is the current business situation in Poland. Do you want the same for Belarus???
Tomorrow I will inform you about freedom of communication in Poland.
If you think, that we have a free TV, free newspapers and free radio - you will be quite disappointed.

In the meantime - if you understand Polish language - I strongly reccomend this Youtube movie. Best Polish political commentator - Stanisław Michalkiewicz is explaining how ex-communist secret services and their agents destroyed our country.
It is bad to suffer under dictatorhip - I agree with you and I wish you freedom as soon as possible.
Just one word of warning: after saying "bye" to Luka DO NOT GO POLISH WAY AS POLAND IS NOT FREE COUNTRY!
We got McDonald's, OK, but we are still no free state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EvnaZwk2no


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
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Instead of Russian soldiers, we've got now appox 20.000 of American soldiers in our country.
Tell me, please - what the hell is the difference? :-)

Божа.. Вось сустрэлася, як адзін вертухай лагернае жыцьцё распісвае.. Калі арыштаваных вырашылі паслаць на фронт, бо такці інакш памерлі б ад голада..
Цитата:
Не без интереса отметить, как проходило освобождение поляков. Мне лично пришлось участвовать и оформлять освобождение более 1500 человек поляков, содержавшихся в Сороковом лагере.
По приезде на колонну была проведена беседа и разъяснение о порядке освобождения. Как только эта категория узнала об их освобождении, сразу изменились отношения между отдельными группами этих заключенных. Бывшие офицеры, чиновники, торговцы и прочая категория бывших польских верхушек отделилась от крестьян, рабочих и мелких служащих, первые начали повелевать последними, задавать тон. Буквально на следующий же день у отдельных заключённых, бывших офицеров польской армии, появились денщики, которые чистили, чинили их одежду, обувь, ходили на кухню за обедом и т.п.

Первым занятием освобождаемых началось обшивание, восстановление своих знаков, эмблем и т.п. Были вытащены старые конфедератки, пришивались к ним завалявшиеся обломанные «петухи» и т.п. Вопрос о войне и сообщениях на фронте мало кого интересовал, больше всего были вопросы, куда лучше поехать, где лучше жить.

Необходимо отметить одну деталь, что польский контингент в большинстве своём оказался слабым, мало приспособленным к условиям лагеря, особенно железнодорожного на Севере. К физическому труду навыков не имел, и производительность по этой категории была исключительно низкая. При поступлении польского контингента в лагерь, заключенные, побывавшие в польских тюрьмах в период до слияния с СССР, крайне удивлялись постановкой работы и охраны заключенных в наших лагерях. У них никак не укладывалось в понятии, как они, заключённые, могут свободно ходить по зоне, задавать вопросы начальству, разговаривать и даже жаловаться на отдельные непорядки. Когда же я им разъяснил, что в Советском Союзе заключённые занимаются наравне со всеми гражданским строительством лучшей жизни для народа, а не тюрьмами, это их крайне поразило. Этот факт широко был использован среди заключённых, как факт, показывающий, что заключённые делают в капиталистических странах и что в СССР.

яшчэ цытатка:
Цитата:
На пункте скопилось более 600 человек освобождённых, подлежащих выезду домой. Из-за отсутствия вагонов вывоз задерживался. В этот момент ко мне обратились из горсовета и райкома партии г. Беломорска помочь им строить оборонительные укрепления вокруг города. Специальной рабсилы для этой цели лагерь выделить не мог, т.к. она была расставлена на оборонных объектах и строительстве ж.д. Я решил использовать для этой цели освобождённых. Проведя с ними предварительную беседу, я им объявил, кто желает идти работать на оборонительные укрепления. Все, как один, дали согласие, причем тут же были сформированы рабочие бригады, выделены бригадиры, десятники и прорабы. Эта группа освобождённых работала на оборонных сооружениях более недели с исключительным усердием, с раннего утра до позднего вечера часов по 13–14 в сутки. Единственным их требованием и условием было проводить с ними ежедневно политбеседы и информацию о положении на фронтах, что я аккуратно выполнял

і вось таксама:
Цитата:
В сентябре 1941 года я прибыл во вновь организующийся лагерь на Крайнем Севере «Заполярлаг». Особенностью этого лагеря было то, что в этой местности редко когда проходила человеческая нога. Сплошная тундра, нет ни единого деревца, ни дорог. Люди быстро смогли освоить этот край, сделать себе жилище из мха и снега, приспособиться к жизни и работе в тундре.

Панам палякам мо зноў хочацца бясплатнага падарожжа да белых мядзьведзяў? :du_ma_et:


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
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"It is better to be a dictator, than to be a gay!".


Lukashenko trade with Russia is not a Norwegian fish or of Polish apples. Trade is the sovereignty of the country. The Kremlin allows him to do it in exchange for a participation of Belarus in its imperial designs in the struggle against the West and, in particular, against Poland, against Ukraine.
Lukashenko has destroyed the national culture, the Belarusian language and national opposition, to obtain the favor of Moscow. So the price - it is not the dictatorship of Lukashenko. Spit on Lukashenko - the dictators do not last forever. The price - the loss of the country as a political entity. That's why he has not, as you write, an independent policy. Policies purchased by Moscow. How to buy prostitutes.
In order to get cheap oil and gas - called enemies of Poland and the entire West, places the Russian military bases from the offensive weapons. And if he wants to get money from the IMF - says he wants to be friends with the West. This is called prostitution. Who better to be - a prostitute or gay?
if you think it's better to make money on cheap oil and gas and on resale of Polish apples by political prostitution and trade country, rather than growing apples and foreign investment, we have nothing to talk - I'm not a communist, not a socialist and not a prostitute .


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
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Hmm, It is clear for me that economical situation of Poland is better than Belarusian. Before Poland start transformation all of us hoped that from now we would make our country stronger and stronger. Unfortunately Miecznik have a point there. We have nice cars, houses but still we are not independent. I think he wants to say that still we are missing something.
I think this topic “Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi” “is created for finding the answer for our and your questions. For us it is to have a strong confederation/union, to be a subject in politics not an object. For you it is both above, to have nice cars and houses and to be a subject in politics as well.


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Rysio писал(а):
Hmm, It is clear for me that economical situation of Poland is better than Belarusian. Before Poland start transformation all of us hoped that from now we would make our country stronger and stronger. Unfortunately Miecznik have a point there. We have nice cars, houses but still we are not independent. I think he wants to say that still we are missing something.
I think this topic “Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi” “is created for finding the answer for our and your questions. For us it is to have a strong confederation/union, to be a subject in politics not an object. For you it is both above, to have nice cars and houses and to be a subject in politics as well.

Economics shouldn't be a primary focus at all.

First, for some reason Polish perception of the Belarus economy is way [under-]exaggerated. Probably, because of lack of information. The economic situation in Belarus is at par with Romania / Serbia - i.e. it's not that bad, maybe 5-7 years behind Poland. But it will come there (unless we get a war of some sort). Simply put, Belarus economy is probably 2-3 times closer to Poland than to Ukraine.

Second, economics is a tactical and technical thing, it will always go up and down, and a strategy cannot be build around it. Even with all lacklustering it tends to correct itself over time unless a political crisis overhauls it.

What is important is fundamentals. Basic shared principles, values, around which we build our development.

You mentioned one of them - independence.

We all increasingly realize that to be truly independent in your decision making, to have the real freedom of choice how you want to live - we have only one way of achieving it. Start supporting each other. Poland doesn't need to become like Belarus, and Belarus doesn't need to become like Poland. But we can have our "independences" only if we work in a team, a team with very clear rules and terms of engagement, that becomes a subject of the world politics, not an object.

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Woloh писал(а):
Rysio писал(а):
Hmm, It is clear for me that economical situation of Poland is better than Belarusian. Before Poland start transformation all of us hoped that from now we would make our country stronger and stronger. Unfortunately Miecznik have a point there. We have nice cars, houses but still we are not independent. I think he wants to say that still we are missing something.
I think this topic “Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi” “is created for finding the answer for our and your questions. For us it is to have a strong confederation/union, to be a subject in politics not an object. For you it is both above, to have nice cars and houses and to be a subject in politics as well.

Economics shouldn't be a primary focus at all.
First, for some reason Polish perception of the Belarus economy is way [under-]exaggerated. Probably, because of lack of information. The economic situation in Belarus is at par with Romania / Serbia - i.e. it's not that bad, maybe 5-7 years behind Poland. But it will come there (unless we get a war of some sort). Simply put, Belarus economy is probably 2-3 times closer to Poland than to Ukraine.
Second, economics is a tactical and technical thing, it will always go up and down, and a strategy cannot be build around it. Even with all lacklustering it tends to correct itself over time unless a political crisis overhauls it.
What is important is fundamentals. Basic shared principles, values, around which we build our development.
You mentioned one of them - independence.
We all increasingly realize that to be truly independent in your decision making, to have the real freedom of choice how you want to live - we have only one way of achieving it. Start supporting each other. Poland doesn't need to become like Belarus, and Belarus doesn't need to become like Poland. But we can have our "independences" only if we work in a team, a team with very clear rules and terms of engagement, that becomes a subject of the world politics, not an object.


Mr.Woloh - very good point, indeed.
I'm sorry for my fixation on Polish internal problems.
This is not the main topic here.
Sorry again.
OK, then. Let's go back to the basics. Independence is the thing of that sort, no doubt. And I'm absolutely, sure, that confederation of Belarus and Poland has MUCH BIGGER CHANCES for independence, than our single countries acting on their own.
The second very important value is FREEDOM. And in my opinion freedom should be a base to build anything else.
What I mean? Personal freedom, political freedom, economical freedom and information freedom. Country (or confederation) providing those values for its citizens is really hard to be stopped, because citizens will be fully integrated with country like this, will be supporting their country unconditionally as they will be sure, that only their state is able to protect the freedom. State/confederation fully integrated with devoted citizens - there is nothing better on this world.
What else values should be a base of confederation?
Your opinion will be highly appreciated.


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Do you still think about membership in UE? So - look now! They want to DESTROY national countries!!! Poland is generally one-nation country. To change it, they send a refugees now to Poland!
Is the Belarus you want???
Just look, how Polish people protest against immigrants from Syria and Northern Africa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nGR3B7RaXU


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Miecznik писал(а):
What else values should be a base of confederation?
Your opinion will be highly appreciated.

This, of course, is very much discussable, and other Intermarian nations would need to weigh in on this, but I can try to take a stab:

- Knightly Nations

Similar to a knightly code of honor (aka szlachta rights) our nations stand for treating each other as equal peers, with mutual respect, dignity, driven by the moral principles as opposed to hypocritical realpolitik of the modern world. We may disagree with each other, we may have arguments, different approaches to issues, or opposing readings of events, but we deem to treat each other the way we want others to treat us. We value empathy over bulling, we value earned respect over the rule of force, we value honest emotions over a fake smile. And through this relations grounded on a morality-driven background, we disdain systems where a countries use force, coercion, or self-appointed patronage to establish themselves in the family of nations. Respect is earned, not enforced, or bought.

We identify nation-states as rightful subjects, aka social personas of our de-facto Commonwealth of Nations. Each state has its own 'honor' (its own nationalism), and it has the right to defend its honor. But in doing so it is limited by the 'honor' and rights of its neighbors. We mutually defend the right of nation-states to select their own fate. Aka the szlachta code translated onto the country level.

We believe that it is the people of each state who have the ultimate voice on how they want to organize their own statehood - not the supranational institutions. "I am fully in charge of my own house, but I respect the choice of my neighbors, and that is what we mutually stand for". "I can have as much nationalism as I want inside my own country, but each nationalism stops at the border". A system where intelligent nationalism is a good thing, and it it designed for coexistence of those nationalisms.

This value is supposed to counter-weigh current anti-national politics of the EU that leads to decay of nation-states for the benefit of neo-imperial structures. Intermarium is an Anti-Empire - as it always was. A flexible network of bilateral ties and international hubs organized by common rules and values, as opposed to a clumsy dictate of pyramid-like structures. It's goal is not to melt nations into a new supranational substance, but to create a commonwealth of nations, a new continent-wide Rzeczpospolita, where nation-states are able to co-exist and flourish through cooperation and competition, as well as joint defense of mutually shared rules and values. We do not believe in uniformity, we believe in a mosaic of free will.

- Responsibilism

If you can do it - you are responsible for it.

The modern international politics has lost its final touch with moral grounds. Realpolitik has consumerized relationships between nations. You can trust no one. No one trusts you. This leads first, to over-formalization of all international relationships, but eventually no one trusts even the signed papers. Second, to a complete decay of those relationships, when at the end of the day you can rely only on your own brute force, which leaves only big players as de-factor subjects of the global world. There smaller you are, the less equal you are.

To reverse this decay the world needs a new moral beacon of international politics. True, different countries have different moral grounds. But someone has to stick to at least one, while majority of others betray even their own values. We do not impose our values on others, but we intend to make the world better by giving it confidence in at least one vantage point that could serve as a moral spine of a globalized world.

We raise the banner of Responsibilism, an thus give a guidance to everyone else, like an international lighthouse. And this moral guidance stretches from the level of individuals to the level of geopolitics.

If you can stop a crime, or save a person — you are responsible for it. If you can stop a war — you are responsible for it. If you can save a planet — you are responsible for it. If you can lead humanity to new heights — you are responsible for it. The more you can — the greater is your responsibility. Responsibilism implies that we are not just apes who learned to walk upright and periodically apply reason, but that we also assume full responsibility for everything that we do, as well as everything that we chose not to. Welcome the birth of HOMO RESPONSABILIS (a responsible man) — the next species in the evolutionary chain above the couch potato man of the Egoistic Era!

- Defense and advancement of Life

We defend life and all its diversity, including the intelligent life of our civilization. Life is a pressures gift that we need to preserve, and carry to new horizons. We achieve this through progress of knowledge, society, technology, and culture. As well as through cooperation and competition between nations.

We are not only looking for new ways to expand the reach of Life throughout the surrounding universe, but also carry responsibility for preservation of Life wherever it has already been established. This stretches from responsible international politics down to responsible families and individuals, which we stand for.

We reject irresponsible systems, policies, and individuals that trade lives of others for selfish gains. The only thing that can stand above individual's Life is individual's Free Will to chose its actions - i.e. Responsibilism. This may refer to a person, a nation, or any other individual, or social being. Same as mother deer sacrifices her life defending a calf, a nation may choose putting its Life at stake for a cause it considers worthy of this sacrifice. But every sacrifice of Life is done with a purpose of preserving and continuing another Life.

We celebrate Life in all its forms.

We acknowledge that the progress of Life is attainable through diversity, not uniformity. And for this reason we praise network structures of varying Subjects over a monolith slavery of Objects.

MORAL CODE, RESPONSIBILITY, and DEFENSE OF LIFE make the foundation of our system of values and actions.

_________________
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A swoja drogą. Co Łukaszenko mysli o litwinizmie? I o konfederacji z Polską?


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Swiatlo писал(а):
A swoja drogą. Co Łukaszenko mysli o litwinizmie? I o konfederacji z Polską?

Nic nie mysli.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Idea wspólnej konfederacji Polski i Białorusi
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Guys, dont You think that comunication between two big slavic nations: Poland and Belarus in english looks completely stupid.
The languages are similar enough to understand each other. the only issue is Cyrylic and Latin alphabet.
Friends from Belarus dont You remember Your own language. Why do You prefer Russian? Even Lithuanian havent foorce You to use letuve language.
When our two nations was under one empire , we call it Poland and Lithuanian Kingdom. But in fact Lithuanian was Belarus mosotly and primary language was Belarusian because Lithuanian was in minority. The only issue was sophisticated conflict between Poland and Ukraine.
Poles in my ages was lerned russian for years, I can still understand a lot from hearing but unfortunatelly cyrylic is completely strange for me.
If You can write in Latin letters in english then You can write using latin letters in Belarus or even russian and most people from Poland will understand.
The English language is to simple to artificial to comunicate. it is global language because it is so simple. I think semipolnad-semibelarus can be less simple and understandable enough for both. Regards.


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dzezik писал(а):
Guys, dont You think that comunication between two big slavic nations: Poland and Belarus in english looks completely stupid.
The languages are similar enough to understand each other. the only issue is Cyrylic and Latin alphabet.
Friends from Belarus dont You remember Your own language. Why do You prefer Russian? Even Lithuanian havent foorce You to use letuve language.
When our two nations was under one empire , we call it Poland and Lithuanian Kingdom. But in fact Lithuanian was Belarus mosotly and primary language was Belarusian because Lithuanian was in minority. The only issue was sophisticated conflict between Poland and Ukraine.
Poles in my ages was lerned russian for years, I can still understand a lot from hearing but unfortunatelly cyrylic is completely strange for me.
If You can write in Latin letters in english then You can write using latin letters in Belarus or even russian and most people from Poland will understand.
The English language is to simple to artificial to comunicate. it is global language because it is so simple. I think semipolnad-semibelarus can be less simple and understandable enough for both. Regards.

Цитата:
When our two nations was under one empire , we call it Poland and Lithuanian Kingdom.

Bzdury. Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów.
Not Kingdom, Not "Poland and Lithuanian".
Erlyer it was Grand Duchy of Lithuania, without any Poland.

And you can write here in polish, in english, in russian, in byelorussian - as you wish. Welcome.

_________________
Фракция любителей альпинизма им. Р.Меркадера
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