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 Заголовок сообщения: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Polski: Intermarium - narodziny Homo Responsabilis
Magyar: Intermarium - a Homo Responsabilis születése
Română: Intermarium - nașterea lui Homo Responsabilis
Česky: Mezimoří – Zrození druhu Homo Responsabilis

The current article builds upon discussions on http://www.bramaby.com dedicated to Intermarium and the ideas of East Central European federalism, and opens a debate regarding virtues that could provide a foundation for such a union, and help put Intermarian nations behind one cause within a commonly shared system of values.

Introduction

Every political union, social entity, or nation that aspires a role of global leadership, that strives to leave a mark in the history of humanity, has some kind of a philosophical idea in its foundation. This idea gives the reason for existence of this entity, and powers its eagerness to perform. Such ideas could carry creative, or destructive force, or often both of them together. The ideas are borrowed, improved, and built upon - in other words, they evolve.

Imperial ideology of Rome, Catholicism of the Habsburg Empire, jihadism of the Ottomans, industrial imperialism of Britain, marxism of the Soviet Union, national socialism of the Hitler’s Third Reich, democratic capitalism of the USA - each of those philosophical paradigms contributed not only to achievements (including plentiful negative achievements) of their carriers, but most importantly to their existence as a whole. Lack of a 'big idea' that a carrier feels fully responsible for leads to its impotence, and a fast internal decline. Examples of the latter could include seemingly huge, but ultimately fragile entities ranging from the Alexander's empire, the Mongol Empire, till modern European Union, Latin American Mercosur, or even post-Soviet Russia.

Intermarium (Międzymorze, Межморье) is a name that is increasingly associated with the whole diversity of countries between Germany and Russia. It is not a mere replacement for a bulky and stereotyped Central & Eastern Europe, but a connotation that includes a much deeper idea with a vivid federalist flavor. In his book The Intermarium: Wilson, Madison, and East Central European Federalism Jonathan Levy claims that a political union of those countries created on federalist principles could produce a lasting solution to region's problems, ensure its security and self-sustained growth.

However, a political union without a fundamental idea behind it is useless. Such an entity doesn't really have a reason to exist. Effective economic cooperation could well be built under already existing rules and procedures of international relations. Yet, presence of certain common values within the region is a path to common virtues that might eventually bring Intermarium into existence. In the view of foreigners, the so-called Eastern Europeans (or we should probably call them “Intermarians”) have certain common traits and values besides unpronounceable names and partying habits. If outsiders could see those traits, perhaps we could go one step further, and try to identify idealistic values that could unite the Intermarians behind one common cause. A bigger idea that ensures not only existence of Intermarium, but also gives the region a reason to turn from a follower into a leader, have something specific to stand for, and find a way to a global leadership of the planetary magnitude. The current article is meant to be the first ball in analyzing the Intermarian Idea, and is an invitation to an open discussion.

Intermarian Virtues

The mystery of Intermarium is that it seems both uniform, and diverse at the same time. Despite many centuries of common history, array of common enemies, continuous coexistence side by side, and never ending mutual penetration and intertwining of its nations, the variety of global lines of division stretching through this land couldn’t be more plentiful. Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Slavs and non-Slavs, Latin World and Cyrillic World, staunch believers and religiously indifferent, NATO-members and non-NATO, EU and non-EU, Euro and non-Euro, etc, etc.

At first glance, this diversity makes it more difficult to find common traits. But perhaps it is exactly our diversity that could give us our main power, and stimulate us to put those secondary discrepancies aside while focusing on things that really matter. Below are few main virtues which Intermarium and the Intermarians could claim to stand for.

1. Republicanism (A Democratic Anti-Empire)

A huge chunk of history of Intermarian nations is penetrated by their fight against empires, and against imperial rule. Their four main adversaries - The Habsburg Empire, The Ottoman Empire, The Russian Empire, and The German Empire - learned to cooperate between themselves much faster than the Intermarians cleared their own internal grievances in the process of national formation (those grievances were also eagerly exploited by the empires to play the Intermarians against each other). However, this coin had a flip side. By the nature of their struggle, Intermarian nations developed a strong connection with ideals of republicanism as a set of progressive values opposite to surrounding imperial pressures. Even in the case of Hungary, which eventually fought its way into the right to share the imperial blanket with the Austrian house, this bonus rather came as a retribution for its strenuous pro-republican struggle against the imperial cause imposed by Austrian and Russian guns.

Traditions of democratic, pluralistic governance have very deep roots across many Intermarian people. From early vox-populi institutions in the Kievan Rus to the age of elected kings in Hungary, from the Seim of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to traditions of Cossack democracies, from republican revolutions in Wallachia and Moldova to anti-imperial uprisings in Greater Poland. To a degree, history itself left the Intermarians little choice but to embrace evolution of the anti-imperial republicanism. And even when this path faced superior oppressors at home, the republican charge often searched for exit elsewhere - like that of Tadeusz Kosciuszko and Michael Kovats in the USA, Ignacy Domeyko in Chile, and of many others.

The path towards republicanism was not only a product of traditions of vox-populi decision making in the region, but also an edifice of independent thinking, and opposition to externally imposed dogmas. One of the first and most vivid examples produced by this type of anti-imperial mentality was the Hussite movement in the Czech lands. The Hussites managed to successfully challenge not only the biggest empire of its time - the Holy Roman Empire, but also the dominant political ideology the world knew - the Christian dogma of the Papal Rome. This intrinsic desire to live with one’s own mind against all the surrounding odds leads us to the second virtue of the Intermarians - progressive nationalism.

2. Progressive nationalism (My Nation Is My Castle)

Local nationalism is largely inseparable from the life of the Intermarians. Even in places like Belarus whose authoritarian ideology was crafted upon Soviet blueprints that staunchly denounced nationalism and undermined people's identity, the grassroot feelings of “us vs. them” and “don’t mess in my courtyard” are as acute as in places like Serbia which went through ethnic conflicts.

The processes of national formation in Intermarium were bloody and tough. Not lastly because each Intermarian nation proved to be very hard to kill. Intermarium is a place with no major historical winner - neither internal, nor external. A hellish furnace that forged a variety of die-hards instead of melting them into one big supra-nation like Germany, or Russia. This struggle for survival caused the Intermarians a lot of pain, costed many lives, exhausted resources, and took both progressive and ugly forms.

Eventually, at an individual level each Intermarian nation was left in a disadvantage by being too small to matter. However, if one looks at Intermarium as a united ecosystem, conclusions could be quite opposite. Variety of nations produced variety of approaches, and fostered competition between elements of the system, their eagerness to perform. Variability of the “Intermarium's DNA” increases chances for survival of each element. Within its soup of nations Intermarium tries a bigger number of things, is quick to identify successful traits, and effectively shares them internally through the mechanisms of competition and self-assessment vis-à-vis others.

Revolutions of 1989 spread like wildfire. Would the peaceful Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia happen without ugly crackdowns in Poland before that? Would the Polish Solidarity succeed without the Soviets already having the blood of the Prague Spring and Budapest on their hands? Would Ceaușescu fall in a vacuum? Surely, all of it is debatable. But what is hardly questionable is that the more you try, the faster you succeed. Intermarian nations always look at each other to measure their own performance.

In the age of little understood globalization, and failing multiculturalism across Western European nations, local nationalism of the Intermarians received another connotation. It became the last hub for preservation of achievements and further development of the core European civilization. Not in terms of religion - many Intermarian nations are not religious at all - but in terms of giving the European civilization the second chance to progress without repeating mistakes of former empires embroiled in their post-colonial guilt policies. Intermarium is pro-global, and eagerly benefits from globalization, but it still has a chance to find the right place for national and global within itself, put the two into a balance without engaging them in a forceful marriage.

By providing functions of competition, variability, preservation, and balance, open and honest nationalism of Intermarian nations assumes a progressive role. If a nation is upright about its ways of life, and does not engage in hypocrisies to gain cheap benefits at expense of outsiders, it can afford one big thing - be responsible. Responsible for every its citizen, for every action, and most importantly - for every non-action. Thus, the third and main virtue - responsibilism.

3. Responsibilism (If You Can, You Are Responsible)

The nature of struggles and challenges that most of Intermarian nations faced in the last several centuries was such that an enemy, or an opposing force was usually overwhelmingly superior. Whether we talk about fight of the Balkan nations against huge armies of the Ottoman empire, or plentiful national revolutions and uprisings against Russian, Austrian, and Prussian occupiers, or survival between war machines of Hitler and Stalin, or even internal revolutions of the modern age from Romania of 1989 to Ukraine of 2004 - all have a similar trait of courage and honesty to stand up for a fight in which you are very likely to lose.

However, little hope for victory doesn’t mean that you don’t fight. People of Budapest have demonstrated it in 1956, Prague - in 1968, people of Minsk keep demonstrating it now. And these uneven collisions with externally sponsored regimes and their local watchdogs left a deep philosophical value-rooted mark on the Intermarians. This mark continues to influence mentality of the Intermarians long after those struggles passed into archives of history. The Intermarians don’t buy excuses like “I was ordered to do that”, “everybody did it, and I did”, and “I didn’t know”. Because you are responsible for everything that you do, and even more responsible for things that you don’t. In this article we summarize this virtue under the term of “responsibilism”.

Responsibilism is one of emerging values that we hope could drive the Intermarians continuously forward. Once we better understand and help to define the meaning of responsibilism, it could become the crown jewel of the Intermarian civilization. Something that transforms from a defensive mechanism of die-hard nations into a front banner of a global leader.

If you can stop a crime, or save a person - you are responsible for it. If you can stop a war - you are responsible for it. If you can save a planet - you are responsible for it. If you can lead humanity to new heights - you are responsible for it. The more you can - the greater is your responsibility. Responsibilism implies that we are not just apes who learned to walk upright and periodically apply reason, but that we also assume full responsibility for everything that we do, as well as everything that we choose not to. Welcome the birth of HOMO RESPONSABILIS (a responsible man) - the next species in the food chain above the couch potato man of the Egoistic Era!

Responsibilism is intrinsically connected with the other two Intermarian virtues - republicanism and progressive nationalism. By establishing higher level of responsibility for more able, more resourceful, more educated, responsibilism builds upon local traditions of noble democracies combining virtues of aristocracy with universal opportunities of democracy. Responsibilism is in many ways a product of Intermarian republicanism, and struggles it led.

At the same time, responsibilism is also the essential balancing factor to nationalism of the Intermarians. Responsibilism is global, while nationalism is very local. Competitive nationalism of the Intermarians becomes progressive only when it blends with responsibilism. When nations know the line after which they put their differences aside, and work together towards a greater good. Not because it is a bargain of some sort, but because it is what they are all collectively responsible for.

Conclusion

Responsibilism, progressive nationalism, and republicanism of the Intermarians are mutually connected, and continuously build upon each other.

Изображение

Responsibilism represents a suggested concept that evolves from the Intermarian virtues, and is meant to connect them into a cohesive self-powering system. It also comes at the right time, when technological advance, rise of information channels, and accumulated social experience provide tools for accelerated evolution of homo responsabilis, a responsible man.

It is hard to predict today whether Intermarium ever evolves into any kind of a political, or military union. However - as the Intermarian spirit says - it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. Recent creation of the Visegrád Battlegroup is the first step in this direction. It needs to be complemented with many more. To achieve this, the Intermarians need to have a common cause that we could all stand behind despite our differences, and even benefiting from them. Only then Intermarium could become a flagship for its own values, and transform itself into a global player capable of taking on the most challenging tasks - from geo-political leadership till joint space program.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Discuss here in any non-Cyrillic language: English, Polish, Hungarian, Romanian, Czech, etc..

Please feel free to leave your opinions what could be our joint values in Intermarium, if any. Or any other thoughts dedicated to our region.

Any help with spreading the discussion in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, the Czech Republic, and other countries will be highly appreciated. Let's start talking!

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Following this article, our visitor from Poland Sim0nSs has expressed a concern that some countries - notably Germany - will be acting against such a union in Intermarium because they have a history of doing so before.

I'll post my reply here:

There is no question that some countries - most likely Germany and Russia - might be playing against such a confederation in Intermarium. (Austria and the Ottomans have already been successfully taken care of after WWI). However, on the other hand, it is exactly now that we have a historical chance to actually start bringing Intermarium into reality when both Germany and Russia are probably at their historically lowest international standing. Germany has been completely strained by the EU crisis, and Russia - by turning away from democracy - is losing credibility and allies in the West while being outpaced by China in the East. They are both way too busy with internal problems.

Another argument - this is exactly the case when our strength comes out of the Intermarium's diversity. Intermarium is already divided. There is almost no chance to divide it further (unless somebody sparks eastern separatism in Ukraine). There is not much harm they can do to us. At the same time, by being diverse we can start engaging other world players who can keep Germany, EU and Russia in check. I am talking about growing Polish engagement with the US, and growing Belarusian engagement with China. If we start talking about a triple geopolitical Axis (USA - Intermarium - China) this becomes a completely different game.

Lastly, even with Germany and Russia we could try to find arguments, why having an active Intermarium around could be a beneficial thing for both them, and Europe in general. We'll have to show that Intermarium is not coming into existence to get revenge on older foes, but to lead the European civilization at the time when others fail to do so.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Countries can be shared on two groups: the serious countries and other countries. The serious countries have one characteristic feature: they are able to define their reason of state, they can fulfill it and defend it no matter who rules! Poland is in the second group. Talking about Intermarium and the way we should accomplish this idea, we cannot forget about our internal situation. The only serious and independent country in Intermarium is Hungary, but let's see on their internal and external situation. They are constantly endangered by a financial collapse, on the other hand they have huge problems with getting World Bank help. They are alone in their battle in European Union, battle against stupidity and unreasonable regulations. This is how EU deal with defiant leader. European Union in today shape is a Hitler's dream achieved by economical and financial domination, not by panzers and infantry. Does Germany let us to deprive their sphere of influence for which they fight for over 100 years? I don't think so. The country is as strong as its neighbors are weak. Germany want us to be weak, with our peripheral economy, to be their outlet and their source of cheap manpower. Polish ruling party, Platforma, is pro-german, formerly financed by Germany using non-official foundation. Our prime minister Donald Tusk and pro-government "authorities" are constantly awarded by German state orders and awards (of course not only a piece of metal, but lucrative amount of money). Two days ago Tusk get proposition to become the President of the European Commission. Nothing in Brussels happens without Berlin.

We are in deep crisis, we don't have any real leaders, our situation is extremely difficult. Idea of Intermarium sounds great as long as the man who rules knows it and act in his state interests.

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Well, Germany will do whatever America tells them to do, even if they don't like it.

Russia has been trying to distract America from Europe by fuelling conflicts in the Middle East, and playing its own game here. But German-Russian alliance is very fragile, because Germans will never see Russians as equal, and Kremlin increaingly understands it.

For this reason Russians have a "plan B" strategy - to please Poland and distract it from building Intermarium. Poland is the most vulnerable part of Intermarium. Things may happen without Ukraine or Hungary, but they will never happen without Poland. That's why both Germans and Russians will be trying to please Poland and take it out of equasion.

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I think that making intermarium idea, to become a truth will be unbelivable difficult.
Government and media will show us as idiots. Scepticists will say that we are a group of dreamers which want a second European Union and normal peple doesn't even care about what is happening in their countries.
You said that Germany and Russia are in a big trouble, propably one of biggest troubles in their history and that is true, but it doesn't mean, that they are not capable to control us. They don't even have to pay a lot attention. They have their puppets in governments and they will do everything just to be rewarded by a "big brothers" from west and east.
Firstly we need to help people open their eyes. In Poland we have a democratic elections but more than a half of people don't vote! They don't care!
I have sent that article to a lot of big polish political fansites on facebook, hopeing that at least one of them will pay attention, read article and share it, which will make thousands of people know about that.
But no one shared that. No one even responded to me. I sent that to some friends and they don't treat it seriously.

Conclusion: We have a lot of work with making people aware, but i don't know how we will do it. If we want a people to listen to us and discuss, we need a plan

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Nice try Mr. Woloh. Talking of big ideas is difficult. Very difficult indeed. Recently I made an attempt to show how deeply rooted our mechanistic view of the world is by means of Gregorian calendar. And no one here seemed to understand. This just tells me how well implanted in peoples' minds is the idea of ever constant circles of time.

That's precisely the level on which we should be talking about the big Intermarium idea - the level where conscious meets unconscious. And on this level I can think of only one thing common to every single one among Intermarium countries - traditionalism and related to it conservatism in life endeavours.


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Some years ago I have read the artical that you have a polish Institute in Poland with historians which discussed the idea of Intermarium. Try to find them.

May be here: http://www.masterstudies.ru/Universitet ... f-Wroclaw/


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I will try to find out who that historians were.
Generaly, i think that for now, we really need to start doing something more, to make people aware of intermarium issue.
I guess, for now we have no other option but to do it in the internet, so we have to improve that!
We need to start informing each other about political situation of our countries. It would be good if we manage to create some kind of group of bloggers and translators on Bramaby site.
That one article, translated to several languages is a great thing, but it isn't enough, i'am affraid.
We need to have here some people, writteing about political situations of their countries, international relations between their countries and other potential members of intermarium, etc, and after that, translate it to several languages. I know that it's plenty of work but without that, discussion will soon die.
And we need to make that site more popular. Maybe some posters or something, which all of us will be able to hang on walls in his country, in his language version, with some short explanation of intermarium idea and with the bramaby.com adress
For now, making political parties in my country intrested of that idea is impossible. They don't want changes and recently if someone does, he dissapear or commit a suicide. I guess we must develop that idea and be ready to act if something changes in politics

Also, i found something interesting in the wikipedia
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dz ... olityka%29
At the end of the article, there is written that KPN was intrested in intermarium idea.
You propably heard about polish "solidarność", but before them, there was one more opposition party fighting for our freedom - Konfederacja Polski Niepodległej (A confederation of independent Poland. Unfornately they have been marginalized just after communism fell, so they haven't impact on polish politic, but in 1992 they accepted Intermarium as their official geopolitical conception!
What is more, there already been a try to create international political idea of intermarium. KPN together with some parties from Belarus, Ukraine, Estonia,, Lithuania and Latvia, created an organisation - Liga partii krajów międzymorza (I am not sure how to translate, because i havent found an english name of that in the internet but something like league of parties from intermarium countries) Unfornately people werent interested, and they havent money to run that organisation so it died.
It may be useful to speak to some KPN politics about that.
Happily, my father is one of them, so i will speak with him about that league, because its imposible to find anything in the internet :-)

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Seren писал(а):
Conclusion: We have a lot of work with making people aware, but i don't know how we will do it. If we want a people to listen to us and discuss, we need a plan

Thanks for your trying Seren! That's all that counts.

Don't worry - it takes time and a lot of dissapointments. Nobody will believe in the idea right away. And the countries are not yet ready. But there is a good chance that this time will come, and by then everything should be ready.

As we see our mission right now - the most important thing is to talk everything through among as many people as possible. Most importantly - crossborder. The place doesn't matter - it could be Brama, it could be any other resource. All we need are opinions, including negative opinions.

When you spread the word tell just one thing - Belarusians are interested in your opinion about Intermarium. All pros and cons. And today there is no other place dedicated to such an exchange.

Seren писал(а):
Happily, my father is one of them, so i will speak with him about that league, because its imposible to find anything in the internet :-)


Good call, btw :uch_tiv:

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I think that making intermarium idea, to become a truth will be unbelivable difficult.

Killing USSR, and breaking the Berlin Wall was once unbelievably difficult, too. And then the day comes when these things just happen overnight.

Things might actually be much closer than we think. Here is one scenario:

1) Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic have already signed a military union - The Visegrád Battle Group - that operates outside of the NATO command, and will be put on duty in 2016.

2) A political union between Poland and Belarus is not impossible. Our small provocative topic about confederation with Poland has shown that it can very easily ignite broad interest in Belarus if presented seriously.

3) Economic union between Poland, Ukraine, and some other countries in the region gradually evolves. Starting from things like Euro 2012, till trans-border cooperation zones with participation of Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Belarus.

Integration can just go at multiple speeds with different countries and in different directions. And then we just start bringing it together.

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And every one of those directions develops a particular sub-element for a future joint DNA of the entire Intermarium


Вложения:
Intergration2.png
Intergration2.png [ 530.2 КБ | Просмотров: 21610 ]

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To all visitors of this topic (especially our guests from Intermarium) I suggest to answer the following questions:

1) Do you think a powerful Central-Eastern European alliance is needed in Europe?

2) What are the main barriers to the Intermarian Confederation (besides rogue personalities like Lukashenko, etc)

3) Where would you see main areas for coordination within Intermarium
For example, in our topic dedicated to a Polish-Belarusian confederation we argued that the best place to start is joint defense, and joint foreign policy, leaving all economic and social issues to local governments. Can it be translated to all of Intermarium?

4) What do you think of the recent idea from Westerwelle and Sikorski about direct elections of the EU President?
It's worth to notice that from Eastern Europe it's only Poland who participates in that. Without the rest of Intermarium (Hungarians, Czechs, Romanians, Bulgarians) I guess having a voice of only Poles will be just fine for the Germans.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Me personally, I'm very interested of financial balance of (possible) Intermarium states with the EU (cohesion funds and so on).

As far as I know Poland received EUR 10,5 bn net from the EU during 2004 - 2012.

What about other states?

I assume that support of European integration is still well-paid.

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A bit of a theory. Based on previous conversations about a Polish-Belarusian union, here is my take on one of potential governance structures of Intermarium.

1) Primary cross-Intermarian functions should be common voice on the world stage (Foreign Office), and joint defense (Defense Ministry).

2) National governments should stay responsible for economic and social policies, including independent national banks. This should preserve economic competition and progress within Intermarium.

3) For the head of Intermarium there are several options:

3.1 - Elected President. - Doesn't seem sustainable because elections will have a strong national bias. Verdict - NO.
3.2 - Collective presidency. - Works only in small countries/unions. Once number of members reaches particular level, some voices stop being heard. Verdict - NO.
3.3 - Monarchy. - No elections - no contradictions. Seams perfect. Only one problem - we will never agree on the ruling house. Verdict - NO.

3.4 - Chancellor appointed by the parliament. Has several strong sides:
- eliminates conflicts between executive and legislative branches which increases stability,
- gives higher voice/role to minority voters, their voices become heard
- national bias could be mitigated by electing the parliament only from the Intermarian parties. To qualify for an "Intermarian party" a political party would need to reach a particular voting threshold (for example 5% of voters) in each country. This way a winning political party will have a better connection with each Intermarian country, and the Chancellor could represent all of Intermarium.

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I talked to my father, but unfornately he wasn't involved in that intermarium project. But he knows someone who was :]. I don't know when, but i will talkto that man and maybe invite him here, so he could schare some ideas and experience :)

1) I think that We need that allience, but we aren't alone. It would be good for china and USA, so maybe they will support that idea.
2) Blind ignorants and doubters. People don't even want to think about that. I written about intermarium on one of polish patriots forums. People don't read my post. In one of topics i said that something like confederation in central-east Europe could change everything for us, and give us strength. No one agreed with me. "We don't need", "Why?", "I dont like them" "It would not give us money"
Whats more, people are focused on idiotic problems. Not on their future. They don't care -.-
3)I agree, defence, research, international politicy. I dont want enything like common currency etc.
4)I think that EU is too big and even if that institution was made for the common good (and isn't), we don't have common goals with france, or spain. Our countries are from other geopolitical regions. I don't want common president with them. And even if it had a sence, he should be chosen by all countries.


I spoken about intermarium with my friend from Ukraine and She was very suspicious about that idea. She said that we want to make a confederation, but for now Ukraine can't cope even with itself because its very divided, so thinking about a big confederation of many countries seems to her crazy. Also she had a lot of doubts, because of being affraid of loosing freedom and being a "subcountry" in that confederation.
I think that a lot of people would said the same if we ask them, so We should focus on thinking how to prove that this idea is safe and what guarantees of independence should be introduced in intermarium structures

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Woloh писал(а):
- national bias could be mitigated by electing the parliament only from the Intermarian parties. To qualify for an "Intermarian party" a political party would need to reach a particular voting threshold (for example 5% of voters) in each country. This way a winning political party will have a better connection with each Intermarian country, and the Chancellor could represent all of Intermarium.
[/img][/url]

Great idea, i like that

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Seren писал(а):
I talked to my father, but unfornately he wasn't involved in that intermarium project. But he knows someone who was :]. I don't know when, but i will talkto that man and maybe invite him here, so he could schare some ideas and experience :)


Thanks Seren, that's excellent!
If that person would be willing to write anything for Brama, perhaps his thoughts about Intermarium, how it could work, what would be problematic, etc - that would be perfect. He can surely write in Polish, we'll translate.

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1) I think that We need that allience, but we aren't alone. It would be good for china and USA, so maybe they will support that idea.


I don't have a doubt that US and China will support it. Actually, I think that if people of Intermarium are determined enough in their actions, even Russia and Germany could eventually embrace it, and understand benefits for them.

Seren писал(а):
2) Blind ignorants and doubters. People don't even want to think about that. I written about intermarium on one of polish patriots forums. People don't read my post. In one of topics i said that something like confederation in central-east Europe could change everything for us, and give us strength. No one agreed with me. "We don't need", "Why?", "I dont like them" "It would not give us money"


That's absolutely normal. Same (if not worse) was in Belarus. But people start to gradually change their opinion once you start a quality, balanced conversation about it, without making it into a propaganda. The more writers we have on Brama about Intermarium - from various Intermarian countries - the high is the level of the discussion. First reaction will always be laugh and trolling, but if we stay calm critics inevitably start changing their tone and quite often turn into allies.

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4)I think that EU is too big and even if that institution was made for the common good (and isn't), we don't have common goals with france, or spain. Our countries are from other geopolitical regions. I don't want common president with them. And even if it had a sence, he should be chosen by all countries.


Intermarium doesn't need to be in opposition to the EU. There are several scenarios - it could either be one big member (like Germany, with a correspondingly big say), or it could simply be an alternative should the EU project fail (which it clearly could). Having an alternative, or a plan B never hurted anyone. For example, British guys know it too well that keeping all eggs in one basket is never a smart idea.

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Seren писал(а):
Woloh писал(а):
- national bias could be mitigated by electing the parliament only from the Intermarian parties. To qualify for an "Intermarian party" a political party would need to reach a particular voting threshold (for example 5% of voters) in each country. This way a winning political party will have a better connection with each Intermarian country, and the Chancellor could represent all of Intermarium.
[/img][/url]

Great idea, i like that

Thanks. Perhaps, to avoid exploitation of ethnic minorities the threshold should be a bit higher - maybe around 10%. This is mostly to avoid rows and fears over Hungarian minorities in places like Slovakia, or Romania. Although this won't solve the Russian question in Ukraine (which might be less important since Russia is not part of Intermarium).

Here is the list of second biggest ethnic groups in each country (not all of them should be a part of the union right away, but just fyi):

1) Poland - Germans 0.4%
2) Czech Rep. - Moravians 3.7%
3) Slovakia - Hungarians 9.7%
4) Hungary - Roma 1.9%
5) Belarus - Russians 8.3%
6) Ukraine - Russians 17.3%
7) Romania - Hungarians 6.6%
8) Bulgaria - Turks 8.0%
9) Serbia - Hungarians 3.8%
10) Croatia - Serbs 4.5%
11) Moldova - Ukrainians 8.4% , Russians 5.8%, but most of them are in a breakaway Transdnistria.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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At the same time Intermarium will be undeniably beneficial to Hungarians. For the first time in modern history Hungarians in various countries will be able to unite their votes and make a difference together - unlike in a huge EU (the only perk is that with such a rule mentioned above their cause will need to also have an appeal to other Intermarian nations as well).

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Woloh писал(а):
3) Slovakia - Hungarians 9.7%
4) Hungary - Roma 1.9%
7) Romania - Hungarians 6.6%
9) Serbia - Hungarians 3.8%


Hungarians... :-) what is the similarity of our Georgians?

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5) Belarus - Russians 8.3%
6) Ukraine - Russians 17.3%


Many ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians, the census recorded themselves Russian.
May be under the "Russian" they meant "Soviet"?

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Interesting - at the last meeting of the Visegrad group (V4) on May 23, 2001 the four countries were joined by Ukraine:

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Here is another interesting resource on the Visegrad (in the spirit of Intermarium):

http://visegradrevue.eu/

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The Economist about the recent initiative by Westerwelle and Sikorski

SimEurope
Some fantasies for the future of Europe may cause more problems than they resolve


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What will happen if real elections are introduced in the EU?

First, I think it is highly likely that the idea will fail. Can you see a German president dictating to France? I can't. So, the position is likely to stay ceremonial. However, at this point all they are probably trying to achieve is to kick Britain out of the EU. And nobody cares about opinions (or even presence) of Romania, Hungary, or the Czech Republic. The epicenter of the union will become a German-Polish (as opposed to German-French) alliance. Which is more like an alliance of a wolf and a lamb in the German eyes. If Germans are smart they will understand they need a stronger Poland. More like a German-Intermarian alliance. Unfortunately, I'm skeptical about their ability to project.

Thus comes Second. I think it is good that they try those elections for several reasons:
- It helps to experiment with a trans-European democracy to learn from inevitable mistakes that will undoubtedly happen.
- If they succeed - good for them. We forget Intermarium, because there will be another successful European project.
- If they end in a stalemate - good for us. Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, and others will stay "unmarried" and this will add to a pan-European crisis.
- If they fail - there will be no other option left other then to pursue Intermarium

All I hope is that this new Polish-German playtime does not require another Grunwald to undo the mistakes, as it was six centuries ago.

I still remain hopeful that Germany might understand benefits of a stronger Intermarium for itself. They do need a partner to build Europe. And it's not going to be France or Russia.

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http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,polityka ... alorusinow
Do You think, that is a real problem? I think that a lot of people from bearus and Ukraine are pro russian and that might lead to civil wars.
If you don't understeand article, tell me i will translate

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Seren писал(а):
I think that a lot of people from bearus and Ukraine are pro russian

I don.t think so. 50/50.

Seren писал(а):
and that might lead to civil wars.


Why ? :jn_pu_sk:


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http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,polityka?zobacz/moskiewska-cerkwi-chce-zjednoczenia-rosjan-ukraincow-i-bialorusinow
Do You think, that is a real problem? I think that a lot of people from bearus and Ukraine are pro russian and that might lead to civil wars.
If you don't understeand article, tell me i will translate

You are exactly spot on with the news, Seren :). Good catching. Although things are not as bad as you think. The reality is actually quite the opposite - we are discussing this developments right now on a separate Cyrillic thread.

Let me explain the meaning for you:

Russia has started the next waive of attacks on Lukashenko. They are going through multiple directions simultaneously, including their new weapon - religion. They want is to incorporate Belarus, but this does not correspond to the plans of the Lukashenko's clan.

As you know, Luka has been always exploiting the pro-integration rhetoric to squeeze more $$$ from Moscow (the argument of the "last faithful ally"). That's what helps Belarus to have a twice higher GDP per capita than in Ukraine. But he always fooled them by not allowing a real integration that could jeopardize his gasp to power. Kremlin knows that, and they are pretty mad about it. They tried to nail him several times, but for the last 20 years they failed every time.

Now they came up with a very smart move. Some weird no-name Russian organization started collection of signatures in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus for "re-unification". Nobody, and nobody at all could collect any signatures on the Luka's territory without his control. But Luka cannot simply shut them down, because he will then look anti-integartionist. This will kill his image in Russia. But have no doubt - he is pretty mad about it, too. His whole game was to balance between being in and out of Russia.

To make things worse for Luka, Moscow employed the Russian orthodox church (the dominant church in Belarus) to bring this almost like a religious matter. They know that Luka 1) cannot openly attack pro-integration activists; 2) Attack the church.

But have no doubt again - he will shut it down. The question is how.

In addition, Russia started the next wave of attack on Luka's oil business - his main money maker. This time pushing Ukraine and Yanukovich to add extra pressure.

Right after this pro-integrationist speculation from the Russian church in Moscow, the Belarusian patriarch of the Russian church (a close Lukashenko's buddy) was very quick to repudiate that "nobody needs any referendums for brotherly nations"

Let me be very clear Seren - what is going on is a "very active Cold War" between Belarus and Russia, where both sides pretend to be having brotherly hugs, but in reality trying to back-stab one another.

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The pro-Russianess of Belarusians is totally misunderstood in the West and in Poland.

Many of the Belarusians think they won't survive without Russia, but even this number is constantly declining.

But if you run a referendum on incorporation into Russia, 90% will vote No. Both pro-Luka, and anti-Luka

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Hmm, that is very interesting what You say. It is one of the reasons i like that forum. You are wright, we think a little bit steorotipically and there are a lot of myths about Belarus, Ukraine or Russia so it is hard to say what is true. Here i hear totaly different opinions.
And what about those Belarussians, that are a little bit russified? Do they have Belarussian identity, despite the fact, that they don't know their language etc?
My friend from Ukraine told me that entire east Ukraine is very pro russian. She told me that in Kiev most people speak proudly Russian language and Ukrainians speaking Ukrainian are ashamed of using their language in their own capital city..
It's kind of scary and i just though that if a lot of people in Belarus are russified, Your country may also be very divided. But it's good to know that most Belarussians would say "no" :cool_cool:
And I have one question :) If Luka only pretend that he is pro russian because it's profitable, why don't he cooperate a little bit with Poland?
I heard that Luka or some historians he supports (i don't remember) year or two ago, said that Poland dreams about conquering Belarus and having border near Minsk.
Maybe i am wrong but it seemsto me that generaly Luka and people ruling Belarus are anti-polish.
I also wonder how many Belarussians believes that we are enemies

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Seren писал(а):
And what about those Belarussians, that are a little bit russified? Do they have Belarussian identity, despite the fact, that they don't know their language etc?


Yes. Most of them.
Seren писал(а):
And I have one question :) If Luka only pretend that he is pro russian because it's profitable, why don't he cooperate a little bit with Poland?

He afraid democracy.
Seren писал(а):
I heard that Luka or some historians he supports (i don't remember) year or two ago, said that Poland dreams about conquering Belarus and having border near Minsk.
Maybe i am wrong but it seemsto me that generaly Luka and people ruling Belarus are anti-polish.


Luka yes. People no. The most people don.t think anti-polish.
I also wonder how many Belarussians believes that we are enemies [/quote]


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Seren писал(а):
Hmm, that is very interesting what You say. It is one of the reasons i like that forum. You are wright, we think a little bit steorotipically and there are a lot of myths about Belarus, Ukraine or Russia so it is hard to say what is true. Here i hear totaly different opinions.
And what about those Belarussians, that are a little bit russified? Do they have Belarussian identity, despite the fact, that they don't know their language etc?

In Ukraine the problem is not Russified Ukrainians. The problem are actual Russians (and those who consider themselves Russians). 17% of population that's one huge minority (I can't even think of many European countries with a similar number). In addition the problem are Soviets, but those are a dying generation. Bottom-line - the problem are those people who don't consider Ukraine as their homeland. The people who had a huge psychological shift of turning overnight from a dominant majority into a minority. Many of them hate Ukraine as a fact of life, and those will of cause be easily ready to sacrifice it.

In Belarus the situation is quite different. ALL of the population is russified. 99% speak Russian as a daily tongue, think in Russian, and I'd say 60% can't even correctly speak Belarusian (however, the dominant majority respects the Belarusian language, unlike many in the Eastern Ukraine who hate Ukrainian). But there is one other big difference from Ukraine. Virtually all of them consider themselves Belarusians. All of them look at Belarus as their homeland. And none of them is ready to sacrifice it. For a comparison you could think of Austrians, or Irish who speak the same language as their one day occupiers, but under no condition you would imagine them willfully merging into Germany or England. Yes, Belarus is much more Russified than Ukraine. But the advantage is that it is also very monotonous, very solid, very alike, and nobody in Belarus thinks of Russia as their homeland.

There is also a side benefit to a "Russified identity", often ignored by observers. Any Russians that where left here after the collapse of the Union are much less of a problem. Moreover, their children consider themselves Belarusians, and that's very important. Russians are not marginalized and much easier melt into the society. While in Ukraine a Russian will almost never become a Ukrainian. Russians are squeezed into a corner, their kids don't want to be Ukrainians, they hate everything Ukrainian, and become a huge factor of instability.

Here is a map of nationalities in Ukraine (yellow - Ukrainians, red - Russians, blue - Belarusians, purple - Hungarians, green - Tatars)

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Seren писал(а):
If Luka only pretend that he is pro russian because it's profitable, why don't he cooperate a little bit with Poland?


Trust me, he would love to. The problem is that each time Europe (and Poland) start talking to him, the issue of democracy pops up. And this is no starter with him right away. If he's offered enough money, he would kick Russia into its ass without thinking twice. Do you remember how he never recognized Ossetia and Abkhazia to everyone's surprise despite enormous pressure from Russia? Moreover, he even allowed Saakashvili to speak freely on our national propaganda-TV. If you would think about that - the closest military ally of Russia opens its main airtime to the president of the country with which Russia is at the state of war (or was at that time). Think Saddam Hussein speaking at will in Germany during Gulf War. Russians were so mad they couldn't even find the words to comment that. Why he did it? Well, some businessmen in Georgia gave him a personal financial offer he couldn't refuse.

But the financial are not in Europe's favor. Sikorski and Westerwelle offered him 2 billion for fair elections. Well, Russia paid him 50 billion during the last 10 years. he compared the two numbers and made his choice.

Seren писал(а):
I heard that Luka or some historians he supports (i don't remember) year or two ago, said that Poland dreams about conquering Belarus and having border near Minsk.


Yeah, he said it once. He is a populist, he constantly throws things like that. We don't even pay attention any more. If you'd compare it to what he said about Russians, their presidents, and others - this would be like nothing to you. When Medvedev was the Russian president he once pretended he doesn't know such a guy. He called the Euro Commission president Barroso "an asshole" in an official interview. Etc. etc.

Trust me, if he sees good tangible business on the Polish side that wouldn't threaten his grasp to power, next morning you will hear lofty pamphlets about the Great Polish Nation, centuries of brotherhood, true Europeans, the bonds of steel, etc, etc.

He will never go to Poland all the way. But he desperately needs a counterweight to Russian hugs. Something in the spirit of Intermarium would be just perfect for him - a Western counterweight to Russia, but not under clumsy Brussels that doesn't understand nuances of an offered game. Unfortunately for him, he can't find smart enough partners in Brussels who understand what he wants from them, and that's why he starts actively dancing with China.

It's all about money.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Here is another news, Seren. The ruling party of Ukraine - the Eastern rooted Party of Regions - has said it is against the referendum proposed by the church. They claim they "don't want break up the country".

A stereotypical thinking implies that Eastern = Russian speaking = pro-Russian = Socialists/Communists. The reality at the very least is much more complicated, and at most - the opposite of what you expect. Seemingly pro-Western nationalists in reality end up acting in Russian interests (even though their rhetoric sounds anti-Russian). Russian-speaking dictators that publicly fancy Soviet Union in reality fight off Russians much more actively than any nationalist would do.

Under nationalist Yuschenko in Ukraine Russians got very favorable deals, which "pro-Russian" Yanukovich started to attack right after getting to power.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Hmm, now i see that 90% of knolage i have is false :-)
But it's good to know that i was mistaken in that case :D
Today was inauguration of my studies and a polish proffesor from oxford made a speech about future of European Union. He was talking about some perspectives and one of arguments was based on a possibility of turning EU into a federation, but he noted an interesting thing. If EU will become a federation, it wouldn't be federation of all countries, that are in EU today. Only a few western countries. I thing that something like that could be generous for us, because if a western federation will be created, they would need a trade/political/etc partner in the east of Europe, which would be a alternative for Russian. Intermarim could be something like that. Trying to build a huge empire in all Europe is foolish. But EU could work correctly if it consisted of only some western nations. Than creating Intermarium in the east might would have better chances.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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:-): Well, to make things worse, we here in Belarus probably have 70% false knowledge about Poland, too. Now you can see why is it important for us to talk, and ensure information flow within Intermarium. That's what we on Brama really want to achieve.

You are absolutely right about a potential relationship between East and West of Europe. The all-EU federation will fail - no question. Problem is, Germany will be trying to drag Poland into such a federation without other Intermarians - Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians. And I understand them - without the rest of Intermarium an isolated Polish voice will be very small. Sounds perfect - Moscow will dictate to Kiev and Minsk, Brussels will dictate to Warsaw, and Prague and Budapest will be outsiders in the middle of nowhere, in the "EU suburbs".

In reality, Intermarium is similarly an interest of not only Western Europe, but of Russia, too. Without an organized structure with a united decisionmaking in this region, there will never be a European architecture that allows Germany and Russia to effectively communicate and interact with each other. They will always be doomed to run the likes of Nord Stream beneath Baltic Sea.

Both Russia and Western Europe will need to become more mature in the way they think about us. They should stop being affraid of a competition from a resurgent Intmarium, and understand that their true interest is to actually have a strong player in its place capable of contributing to the European architecture at par with them. Without Intermarium there is no effective Europe, which means both Russia, and Western Europe will remain isolated sub-par players.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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Woloh писал(а):
2) What are the main barriers to the Intermarian Confederation (besides rogue personalities like Lukashenko, etc)

In Poland - general opinion that we're in EU already and we don't need to join any other international organisation of this kind. And politicians who prefer to connect us, politicially and economically, with Germany, France, UK.
And about question number 4... I don't like it, but I'm afraid sooner or later something like that will be created. Perhaps EU is really going to be one huge country some day. I worked with many foreigners this summer, one of them was from Spain, he claimed we're one country already, he was repeating it all the time. I'm afraid somewhere in the future it will turn out he's right. ;]
Woloh писал(а):
Here is a map of nationalities in Ukraine (yellow - Ukrainians, red - Russians, blue - Belarusians, purple - Hungarians, green - Tatars)

Ah, nationalities. At first I thought it's about languages and I was surprised. A few weeks ago I was in Kiev and almost everyone there spoke Russian. But they were Ukrainians, of course. ; ) And, as far as I know, they are really concerned about Ukraine. Most of people there would prefer cooperation with other countries of Intermarium than Russia, at least it seemed like that, that's just my observation.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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vanderToki писал(а):
In Poland - general opinion that we're in EU already and we don't need to join any other international organisation of this kind. And politicians who prefer to connect us, politicially and economically, with Germany, France, UK.


And that's a completely legitimate point of view. If their position in the EU satisfies Poles there is not much to talk about. Same as if Belarusians are satisfied with their development under the Kremlin's wing. But what if one day they don't. Or if we jointly realize that we are both missing a bigger opportunity. As of now - Intermarium is just a Plan B. But it has to be a worked out plan.

vanderToki писал(а):
Ah, nationalities. At first I thought it's about languages and I was surprised. A few weeks ago I was in Kiev and almost everyone there spoke Russian. But they were Ukrainians, of course. ; )


Yep. In Ukraine there are a lot of Russian speaking Ukrainians. Maybe more than there are Belarusians in Belarus. But they are very different from Russians locked in Eastern Ukraine. A Russian speaking Ukrainian is not equal to a pro-Russian Ukrainian. That's what I was describing to Seren.

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Intermarium - the birth of Homo Responsabilis
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And I also very much agree with you Vander.

The main pressure is actually on the Belarusian side (that's why a true Intermarium could be kicked off only from this side). Poland has already achieved something. It's already has something to offer. To make a deal, Belarus needs to achieve something, too. There needs to be something to offer in return, besides our shiny deep blue eyes :). It doesn't even need to be a bargain. Simply put - Belarusians need to demonstrate that there is something they could be respected for. Then it becomes a dialogue of partners, not just a cheap play on some Polish ambitions

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Woloh писал(а):
If their position in the EU satisfies Poles there is not much to talk about.
Not everyone is satisfied. The problem is, those who are seem to be majority, or they're more active, and they're in charge now. Those who aren't are called fanatics, for example, which make people not trust them. Or discourage them. I'd prefer this plan B. Any plan B. EU is very strange system, with many disadvantages. It is actually led by the strongests. The free market is sometimes tenderly, unnoticeably limited. However, what other option do we have now? Probably could be worse had we stayed outside of EU.
Woloh писал(а):
Poland has already achieved something. It's already has something to offer.
This is discussive matter. On the other hand, in comparison to Belarus - Poland is still in better situation.
Jin писал(а):
Woloh писал(а):
5) Belarus - Russians 8.3%
6) Ukraine - Russians 17.3%


Many ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians, the census recorded themselves Russian.
May be under the "Russian" they meant "Soviet"?

Possible. Maybe some of them. I heard that some children in Donieck schools asked who won the second world war answer "we won". Or "ours".


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